Democrats Push Forward Despite Danger
by Big Dog on Mar 13, 2010 at 05:08 Political
The Democrats are moving along at full speed in order to ram the health care takeover down our throats (though it might be more appropriate to indicate they are ramming it in another body part considering what they are trying to do to us). Nancy Pelosi is busing tightening leashes and Barack Obama has postponed his mini vacation for a few days to help usher this thing along.
[note]I hope he has as much success as he did getting the Olympics in Chicago and Democrats elected in Virginia, New Jersey, and Massachusetts.[/note]
I told you before that this is not about health and it is not about care, it is about control. It is also something that Democrats must pass. They need this to secure a win on a signature issue for Obama. Democrats push forward at their own peril because, by and large, Americans do not want this. The reasons are many including those who do not want it because it is not liberal enough, those who do not like certain provisions and those who do not want any of it because they believe government does not belong in the health care business.
No matter what the reason, the opposition is too loud to ignore. The Democrats However, are good at doing just that. Last August Americans came out in force to town hall meetings and voiced their objections. The Democrat’s answer was to stop having town hall meetings.
Patrick H. Caddell and Douglas E. Schoen, two Democrat pollsters, are warning of Armageddon if the Democrats pass this monstrosity over the objections of the public. They freely admit that Democrats stand to lose seats in the midterm elections (a historical trend) but go on to say that Democrats will lose many more if they pass it.
Their blind persistence in the face of reality threatens to turn this political march of folly into an electoral rout in November. In the wake of the stinging loss in Massachusetts, there was a moment when the president and the Democratic leadership seemed to realize the reality of the health-care situation. Yet like some seductive siren of Greek mythology, the lure of health-care reform has arisen again.
~snip~
However, a solid majority of Americans opposes the massive health-reform plan. Four-fifths of those who oppose the plan strongly oppose it, according to Rasmussen polling this week, while only half of those who support the plan do so strongly. Many more Americans believe the legislation will worsen their health care, cost them more personally and add significantly to the national deficit. Never in our experience as pollsters can we recall such self-deluding misconstruction of survey data.
The writing is on the wall. Despite the claims that people like the bill when they know more about it, the reality is people do not like it and do not want it. Democrats proceed at their own peril.
The authors indicate that people agree that reform is needed and that some parts of the plan are appealing but that the plan in total is not liked. This has not stopped Democrats from moving on, full speed ahead. They continue to claim people will like it once they see what is in it (which we apparently cannot do until it is passed). This is untrue because people already know what is in it and they do not like it.
As Caddell and Schoen state; “…the battle for public opinion has been lost.”
But this will not stop Democrats from walking off a cliff.
And the bad thing for them is that if this does not pass, at this point in the game, those who voted for it will be in real trouble for backing a loser and against the wishes of those they are supposed to represent.
[help]If you enjoy what you read consider signing up to receive email notification of new posts. There are several options in the sidebar and I am sure you can find one that suits you. If you prefer, consider adding this site to your favorite feed reader. If you receive emails and wish to stop them follow the instructions included in the email.[/help]
Tags: caddell, deception, health care, Obama, polls, public support, schoen
The matter is quite sinister: The Democrats have gauged both the probable electoral consequences and the power of the dynamic the federalization of medical care would institute, and have decided that the latter gain is worth the former loss.
Mark Steyn and others have written that national health insurance / socialized medicine marks the point of no return for the loss of freedom. Once a nation accepts such a thing, it can no longer reduce the size of the State in a meaningful way. The reason is not far to seek: The State has the power of life and death over every citizen, not merely those convicted of capital crimes. You don’t oppose a power like that; you go along with whatever its masters and minions demand — and what they want above all other things is to grow.
Imagine that the Senate bill passes the House unmodified, which is the Obamunists’ current tactical thrust. The Senate can then decline to consider the “reconciliation” compromises the House thinks it can demand. Indeed, the Senate parliamentarian would probably rule such a package out of bounds for the reconciliation process. So we’d have a state of affairs in which Washington could erect its multitude of contemplated bureaucracies, the effect of which is to put bureaucrats in charge of the variety, quality, delivery and pricing of every sort of medical product or service. A host of new taxes would of course be imposed to pay for this structure, crafted in such a fashion as to benefit Democrat constituencies and buttress the subventions made to insurance companies, unions, and so on.
Unless he’s caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy, Barack Hussein Obama will not be ejected from the White House until January 20, 2013 at the soonest. Therefore, unless the 2010 elections should deliver an unthinkable conservative miracle, repeal of this monstrosity would be impossible; Obama would veto any repeal measure. That gives the bureaucracies and the processes they superintend three years to entrench themselves — and anyone who imagines that’s not enough time to cement a bureaucracy into place doesn’t know anything about Washington or its “civil servants.” Atop that, the special interests favored by the measure would have enormous motivation to protect their privileges, and under the Public Choice effect, they’d easily outmaneuver the more diffuse general public minded to oppose them.
Three years hence, an American wouldn’t be allowed to buy a federally disapproved aspirin. He certainly wouldn’t dream of allowing his name to appear on a health-care blacklist, comprising opponents of the System to whom no care worthy of the word should go. That list might also include all his relatives.
Would Republicans even be inclined to do away with such a system? Hell, no! They’d go to work “improving” it. “Fine tuning.” Besides, all those new bureaucracies represent patronage and graft opportunities for whichever party holds Washington, not just the Democrats. And both parties can be profligate with an ocean of new tax money, as the years 2001 – 2008 should have taught us. However, when given a choice between Big Government as run by the Democrats and Big Government as run by the Republicans, the electorate has always preferred the Democrats — and the Democrats know it.
That’s our future if we allow this to pass. Frankly, I think it’s reason enough for armed revolt. I hope a sufficient number of other Americans feel the same.
I am not advocating for an armed response but certainly ready should it become necessary. Our Founders said it was our duty and I did take an oath that I evidently hold a lot more seriously than the morons in DC.
You are right, of course. Once they get this in they can blackmail us. “We will have to cut medical services if we do not raise taxes.” “We need to raise taxes to cover more children.” “You need to keep voting for us or the bad guys will take your ‘free’ health care awa.”
We see it every election cycle with Democrats scaring seniors over Social Security or Medicare. What are they doing now? They are going to cut half a trillion from Medicare. They claim they will make it up by eliminating waste. They have been saying they will do that for decades and yet they do not. It costs more to administer and it is rife with waste while denying a higher percentage of patient procedures than private insurance.
If the Dems wanted to end the waste they could have done it in the past year and proven they were worthy.
It is all talk in order to gain control and nothing else.
I see an underground of medical care developing outside the government. I also see a bad future for America if we continue on this path. All the old morons who are doing this will be dead and we will be left with the mess.
Except Obama is young so if it goes bad we can tar and feather him.
Funny, if this is so wonderful why is Congress exempt?
FRAN: “I think it’s reason enough for armed revolt. I hope a sufficient number of other Americans feel the same.”>>
DAR
They don’t. Try it and see.
The Tea Party wackjobs make a racket far in excess of their actual influence. And you’re probably to the right of them.
D.
—————-
Tea party candidates falling short
Excerpt:
“In Tuesday’s Texas GOP primary, tea party-inspired contenders found themselves blown out in races across the state. Gubernatorial candidate Debra Medina, who closely aligned herself with the grass-roots conservative movement, picked up just 19 percent of the vote. And while a host of House GOP incumbents faced challenges from tea party opponents, the only one who faced anything remotely close to a scare was Rep. Ralph Hall — who dispatched his nearest competitor by nearly 30 percentage points.”
Link.
Thank you Big Dog for an outstanding update article. ObamaCare is unconstitutional, period. A prediction is that 39 states will reject this bill in its entirety and will not support it; hopefully the remaining 11 states will do the same. In this case, the constitution specifically states that States rights supercede federal administration. The founding fathers were acutely aware of the potential abuse by centralized federal government powers over the people and as a result they specifically stated that states rights trump federal powers in this case.
There are three major distortions by conservatives on this subject. You mix and match these weekly on your own site.
First of all conservatives are still running with the echo chamber language of “ram” it ” “cram” it or “jam” it in reference to moving forward any way the Democrats can legally. I like what John Stewart said which was something along the lines of “If this is cramming it down our throats then we’ve had a year to chew.” Many conservatives act like this has all just happened in a matter of days and not over a year instead.
Second, conservatives (though you stray slightly from this narrative in your latest post) pretend this has all been behind closed doors so no one, not even Republicans were in on the process or knows what’s going on. Yet, we’ve seen the House and Senate bills that have all had numerous republican amendments which passed their respective chambers. We’ve seen the debates before and after those votes. We’ve seen the proposed changes from Obama that are on the table right now. We’ve seen reports from the CBO. We’ve seen the health care summit where details of the bill were discussed in length for 6 hours. But yet conservatives still insist otherwise.
Third, opposition to the passage of the bill is shrinking, not growing. If conservatives think passing a bill that an average of 48% of people are opposed to when 44% support it means for instance that the Democrats “proceed at their own peril” then I’d love to see what happened when the Democrats actually tried to “ram” something through that was as unpopular as your side pretends health care is.
Well Adam, you seem to think that great political pundits like John Stewart have the answers. Can you tell me what Conan said? Cram does not indicate a time frame. It indicates forcing people to do something that they do not want. They will cram it in even if no one wants it which has nothing to do with having a year to chew on it but more with forcing people. You see, continuing to push this through despite a majority disapproval is cramming it in. Hope that clears it up for you and Stewart. If we were going fast we would say speeding it through.
Now, another common misconception is that more and more people are liking it. Better check your poll samples. People do not like it and the fact that many Democrats are hedging because this is an election year means they know it. If people were happy about this Democrats would not be looking down the barrel of a gun this November. If this were wonderful and popular then Dems would be looking at good times and fewer losses. I will take the word and research of the two Democrat pollsters who wrote the cited article because they know a bit more about it than you and John Stewart. I do know that I deal with a lot of medical people and I have only found two who like the idea.
No one wants this forced upon them. This will have a major impact on a lot of people who are happy with their insurance just to provide for a small number who do not. We can do better than this. And the majority of the process was behind closed doors. So there were some Republican amendments. They were ones that the Democrats were in favor of to begin with and some had sponsors from both parties. Giving credit to the Republican makes it look like you included something that the Dems compromised on. These were items that were not in dispute. All disputed items were not put in because the Dems did not want a bipartisan bill. You and the Dems keep spouting this falsehood as well as it is getting more popular as if continually saying it will make it true. Quit trying to rewrite history.
We are all well arare of the backroom deals and bribes. We know about the closed door meetings. We know that they are using procedure that is not reserved for this kind of bill to pass it because it is not popular even among Democrats . Up to 80 seats could be lost if they pass this.
That does not happen with a popular bill or an above board process.
Delude yourself all you want but the government is overstepping its bounds and the people can see it. I only hope they give us enough of a majority in November to rescind this mess, should it pass.
“Well Adam, you seem to think that great political pundits like John Stewart have the answers.”
It’s better to laugh at people who are trying to be funny with their political commentary than those who try to be serious and just become the butt of a joke.
“If we were going fast we would say speeding it through.”
Maybe so.
“Better check your poll samples. People do not like it…”
Feel free to find me polls with overwhelming lack of support. You’ll go looking and only find a near split between support and lack of support. Yes, fewer people approve than disapprove still but the margin is only 5% or less on most polls out lately and even Rasmussen only finds 53% opposition in the recent poll. I’m not saying support has skyrocketed but it has increased and those who don’t support it have fallen in number.
“If people were happy about this Democrats would not be looking down the barrel of a gun this November.”
The Democrats are looking down the barrel because of an anti-incumbent sentiment and nothing else. It would be near impossible for them to maintain their current levels even with the best of situations let alone when the economy is sputtering along after a deep recession.
“Quit trying to rewrite history.”
Right, the poor, poor GOP just didn’t have a say in anything? Whatever voice they lost on this debate was because they came to the table looking to derail a Democratic success instead of work with Democrats. Neither side has been the model of bipartisan but let’s not pretend the GOP ever intended to work with Obama or the Democrats on this.
“I only hope they give us enough of a majority in November to rescind this mess, should it pass.”
Not likely. Porretto is right on this one when he talks about Obama vetoing any attempt. The GOP would need a massive majority to override a veto. Unless there are options that can exclude the President then the GOP is sunk on this one.
But it is nice to see you have your marching orders from the DNC. Continually saying they are distortions does not make it so.
A few footnotes for Adam’s post:
ADM: “First of all conservatives are still running with the echo chamber language of “ram” it ” “cram””>>
DAR
I bet you saw the Daily Show clip about that. Good stuff. Can’t find it right now though.
ADM: “pretend this has all been behind closed doors”>>
DAR
Nobody really believes that one, surely.
ADM: “opposition to the passage of the bill is shrinking, not growing.”>>
DAR
Exactly right, and the opposition is exaggerated. Obama ran on delivering heathcare and republicans are terrified that he will succeed. That’s all there is to this. And they should be.
Note:
“The latest Kaiser Tracking Poll finds the public still split on health care reform legislation, with 43 percent in favor and 43 percent opposed. However, the poll also finds that majorities of Americans of all political leanings support several provisions in the health reform proposals in Congress and most attribute delays in passing the legislation to political gamesmanship rather than policy disagreements.”
Kaiser.
Yes, we, can.
No, they can’t.
D.
Anti incumbency and nothing else. Keep believing that.
Did you read the linked article and how the numbers will be much higher if this passes?
That should tell you something but alas, it will not.
Kool Aid drinkers are all alike.
Yep, for a year republicans were shut out and we would have seen that if Obama had aired the proceedings on CSPAN as he promised. But he was busy making back room deals with the unions, pharma and the AMA to be bothered.
More blather from Darrel. No one is afraid that Obama will get to keep a promise, we do not like what it will do to the country.
Notice how when Republicans oppose it is gamesmanship wand when Dems were doing it then it was for our own good?
You guys keep up your charade. If this passes there will be a bad time in November and we might well get rid of it in the future.
I do not intend to participate so it does not matter. If there comes a time that I cannot keep the insurance I pay for then I intend not to carry any. I suspect there will be many more.
Will also have to find ways to legally avoid paying taxes with investment so that I do not have to pay for Adam’s parents health care.
One would think their compassionate son would do it.
And the Kaiser thing is about a month old. The numbers are not getting better as the linked piece shows. They keep going down.
And Obama’s approval keeps going down the more he talks about it.
You see, the smartest guy in the room screwed up. If he had fixed the economy instead of bashing it down (need more and more out of work and without insurance to get them to buy in) then he would not need to worry about midterm losses (nothing substantial) and he could have pushed health care when the economy was better and people were better off.
He is a moron and he will ruin his party, thank God.
When this does not pass, what will you all do?
Bigd: “No one is afraid… we do not like what it will do to the country.”>>
DAR
You don’t like what it will do to your party. Make it even more irrelevant. And you don’t like that a success will strength the Demos.
Bigd: If this passes there will be a bad time in November”>>
DAR
Well if that were true, then we would expect you to be looking forward gleefully to it passing. But you’re not. Because it’s not true. If the Demo’s pass this, as they most likely will, it will be very good for them and bad for you. If they don’t pass it, they will take a big hit in the fall for not following through. I think they’ll get it done. Nate at fivethirtyeight has the numbers for what the fall is looking like:
“…we have Democrats projected to lose an additional 4.1 seats in November, which would take their number down to 54.9. This is essentially unchanged from January’s forecast, when we had the Democrats retaining 54.7 seats.” Link
Bigd: And the Kaiser thing is about a month old.”>>
DAR
Good point. Feb 16. Ancient history!
Bigd: “numbers are not getting better… They keep going down.”>>
DAR
Again, roughly 12% oppose from the left, and that does not get factored into these polls. This leaves around 54% support to the left, around 38% oppose from the far misinformed right. The center of opinion is to the left of the bill.
And in line with this, who do the American people trust to get this right? Not your cast of regressives:
“Americans remain more confident in the healthcare reform recommendations of President Obama (49%) than in the recommendations of the Democratic (37%) or Republican (32%) leaders in Congress.”
Gallup Poll, March 5.
Bigd: Obama’s approval keeps going down the more he talks about it.”>>
DAR
Let’s look at the last ten polls measuring his approval in the category of “job rating”:
AP-GfK: 53
Ipsos/McClatchy: 53
FOX/OD RV: 47
Newsweek: 48
CNN/ORC: 49
CBS/New York Times: 46
Pew: 49
ABC/Washington Post: 51
Quinnipiac U. RV: 45
FOX/OD RV: 46
Link.
So really, no change and not so bad considering the country is still in the ditch due to you know who.
Bigd: “When this does not pass, what will you all do?”>>
DAR
Be sad with another missed opportunity for America to do what all of our peer countries did years ago, provide medical care to all of it’s citizens at a lower cost.
You would be happy, mostly because you know it would weaken the Demo’s and strength your party’s shot at power.
When the opposite happens, as it most likely will, reverse the above.
D.
“Will also have to find ways to legally avoid paying taxes with investment so that I do not have to pay for Adam’s parents health care.”
My dad is disabled and on medicaid and medicare. If I’m not mistaken you’ve been paying for his health care for decades and didn’t know it. Oh that lucky ducky!
“One would think their compassionate son would do it.”
Nope, let’s just make the rich do it. That sounds fun.
“If he had fixed the economy instead of bashing it down…”
I’d love for us to once again review the problems you see in the economy and how Obama is to blame.
“The numbers are not getting better as the linked piece shows. They keep going down.”
Which numbers? Take a look at this this graph of the latest polls and tell us again that the numbers keep going down.
ADM: “My dad is disabled and on medicaid and medicare. If I’m not mistaken you’ve been paying for his health care for decades and didn’t know it.”>>
DAR
It’s ironic how Bigd so loathes the government while having suckled at it’s teat so much of his life (and no doubt currently). The military is one of the largest and most expensive government programs of all time, and we all pay for it (including the obscene excesses and waste) and the benefits it provides those associated with it.
D.
Unlike you and the Democrats Darrel, I would not look forward to something that is damaging to the country just because it would help my party.
That is not how I roll and to insinuate otherwise demonstrates a small minded approach and a lack of understanding.
Darrel, the linked piece clearly demonstrates what Dem pollsters think but you discount them because they do not agree with you or some hack named Nate.
As for me, I would not want this to happen no matter what because once it is in place it is unlikely it will go away until we have another civil war and I don’t want to see that happen.
And Adam, you are almost correct. The money the workers pay into Medicare is used to pay today’s eligible and not saved for our own retirement much like Social Security. I might be paying for daddy but might not considering that the system is going broke.
If he gets Medicaid then that is a state system that I don’t pay into since I don’t live in that state.
I just want to know where you people think you have the right to tell me how to spend my money, what to buy and who to support. What gives you the right?
But since we might be paying for people’s stuff we need to introduce a law that let’s taxpayers NOT ON THE GUBMINT DOLE to tell those who are how they have to live. We should also be able to say what rights they retain and which they have given up by living off us.
Adam, tell your dad I will be by to inspect the house for dangers, make sure he is not eating any food bad for him or using products like tobacco or alcohol. If I pay he does what I say.
I will look in on him next time I am down there.
“I just want to know where you people think you have the right to tell me how to spend my money, what to buy and who to support. What gives you the right?”
Who is telling you any of that?
“But since we might be paying for people’s stuff we need to introduce a law that let’s taxpayers NOT ON THE GUBMINT DOLE to tell those who are how they have to live.”
Another awesomely bad idea. You’ve also floated the awesomely bad idea in the past of linking amount of election votes to the amount you pay in taxes. Because you know, being rich doesn’t give you quite enough advantage over the poor as it is so let’s just make them even more powerful.
“I will look in on him next time I am down there.”
You do that. My parents could use some company, what with me over here in your neck of the woods instead of theirs.
Bigd: “I would not look forward to something that is damaging to the country just because it would help my party.”>>
DAR
I don’t believe that for a minute. This is evidenced by your constant desire and cheerleading for Obama to fail in everything he does, even when it is to the detriment of Americans.
Cults are a specialty of mine Bigd. You are a member of a cult and this is the foundation of your irrational behavior.
D.
Obviously Darrel is wrong. Only a small faction of Tea Party people want a third party candidate.
Now if you want real overblown, look at the Dems. They won because of anti Bush sentiment and the novelty of a black guy winning and turned that into an imagined mandate to radically change the country.
Poll after poll shows that they were wrong.
But you guys will stick to your mind numbing beliefs.
As far as the revolution, we have an obligation to get rid of government that has gotten out of control and start another. I want us to get rid of all of them at the ballot box.
If it comes to anything else then we should all be prepared.
Ah yes, the ballot or the bullet. Where have we heard that one before? Oh yeah. An ironic turn of fate where a black man is in power and the white folks are starting to sound like Malcolm X in their opposition to his agenda.
Adam, you and the romantic stupidity. Malcolm X, a racist moron who Barry loved I think…
And why should those who pay no taxes have the same amount of power at the ballot box? Why should the 50% paying no taxes get to decide how much the rest of us will pay by electing people who will take more.
These are not bad ideas at all. In fact at one time you had to be a landowner to vote. There are dues and if people are not paying their dues then they do not all the perks.
I know you do not like it Adam but then again, who cares?
Romantic stupidity? Let’s compare your statements, shall we?
Big Dog, 2010:
Malcolm X, 1964:
On second thought, I see no comparison in your two statements. I don’t know why I saw it to start with…
“And why should those who pay no taxes have the same amount of power at the ballot box?”
Just the price of living in a free country, I’m afraid.
“These are not bad ideas at all.”
Wrong. They are awesomely bad. Perhaps the worst ideas you’ve ever shared online.
I suckled at no teat Darrel. I worked 80-100 hours per week or more as a member of the military making a pittance of what people on the outside made.
The military is a Constitutional establishment whereas Medicare and Medicaid are not. I worked very hard for ever penny I made and it was far less than my counterparts in the civilian world. To suckle at the teat you would have to be getting something for nothing.
So Darrel, you know not what you talk about with regard to the military. You would be wise to walk carefully through this minefield. It is not a good idea to mock the service or better people than you..
Understand?
You said you work in military medicine, you said you make a lot of money (top 1/5th as I remember). That’s government teat and it has nothing to do with your service years (which were also funded entirely by tax dollars).
D.
Everything is supposed to be a specialty of yours cause you are wonderful.
No, not a member of a cult and it is your opinion that what Obama wants will be good for us just as my opinion is the opposite.
And I don’t give a rat’s ass what you do or do not believe.
Bigd: “Everything is supposed to be a specialty of yours…>>
DAR
No, not everything. For instance I don’t know anything about sports and the topic of racism is definitely not a specialty of mine. But cults? Definitely a specialty with decades of experience (and some success in deprogramming people too).
Bigd: cause you are wonderful.>>
DAR
Thank you.
You really are full of yourself. I think you have been drinking too much.
There is no comparison, he talks about what happens if they do not cast a ballot.
I say that we cast the ballots and get rid of them that way and if anything else comes along that we cannot handle at the ballot box then we should be prepared for any eventuality. And he used the words bullet, I did not, I said be prepared and there are plenty of ways to be prepared. You, as usual, put words where they did not exist.
The price of living in a free society is for all to pay the price. It is not free if half the population is a slave to government via the way they are taxed and the other half is a slave via their dependence on government.
You see Adam, you don’t understand the idea of fair. You think each person deserves the right to vote and that each person should have exactly that same right and no more or no less but then you do not think every person should contribute to the upkeep of the country. You are fine if their equal rights mean they do not have to pay equally.
“And he used the words bullet, I did not, I said be prepared and there are plenty of ways to be prepared.”
Sorry, your secrets out now. You don’t have to hide your admiration for militant black nationalism any more.
“You see Adam, you don’t understand the idea of fair. … you do not think every person should contribute to the upkeep of the country.”
Absolutely wrong. I think we each must do our share. I just know your measurement of how a person contributes to our society is narrow and wrong headed. But what’s new? Progressives have been fighting against this kind of garbage from your side for more than a century in America.
I believe I said my family income was in the top part of wage earners and that is all income from salary to investment.
I think you mingled two things. I worked (past tense) in military medicine and I now have a decent salary compared to what I had in the past.
The two are different.
I also have a dream.
Malcolm was a violent guy but I doubt the Onion is the place to get news.
The while BPP and Malcolm X movement was based on the blacks rising up against the whites.
Good luck with that.
Though the radicals have useful idiots like Adam to help them along.
Sorry, I was just trying to share a Malcolm X joke with you now that I know you he think alike. Talk about blowing up in my face…
Useful idiot? At least you don’t consider me a useless idiot. There’s that…