How To Help A Messiah
by Big Dog on Sep 10, 2009 at 13:03 Political
Barack Obama is on the ropes with his health care takeover plan and his speech to a joint session of Congress was a Hail Mary pass to bring things back into his favor. His poll numbers have been dropping and his plan has been getting torn to shreds. His lies about the plan are not going to help the cause (yes, he lied but he was owed the apology by Wilson) even though the media wing of the Democratic party will try to portray him as a paragon of virtue and his speech as pure as the driven snow.
The media has to help out Obama because they have so much invested in him and most of them hold the same views as he. So how does one go about helping out a Messiah?
Cook the books!
CNN had an overnight poll to see how the Sainted Won faired and wouldn’t you know it, Obama’s approval on the issue has improved 14 percentage points. This guy is so magical and such a great speaker that he was able to turn the country around in an instant by standing in front of Congress and lying his posterior off.
The only problem is the poll oversampled Democrats and way under sampled Republicans. The sample was 45% Democrat and 18% Republican (with no Independents?) so the results are most definitely skewed.
Obama did not say anything new. Yes, he changed the number of uninsured but most of what he said was the same old story interspersed with tired clichés. And of course there was the obligatory bashing of Republicans and others who disagree with him.
The CNN poll is designed to deceive the public and make those who are opposed believe that the battle is over now that Barry has spoken and “clarified” things for us. CNN is trying to squash any further dissent so that the path to Socialism will be a smooth one.
Don’t let these morons fool you. Obama and his health care takeover plan are in trouble. There are quite a few Democrats in the House who claim that they cannot vote for this, and in the Senate Kennedy is dead and won’t be replaced until next year and Byrd is too sick to vote. The Democrats do not have the votes in the House and they surely do not have them in the Senate. If they pull procedural tricks to ram this through they will pay a heavy price in the 2010 election.
Obama and health care are on the ropes just as they were before he gave the speech. He lied and as those lies are exposed over the next few weeks more and more people will oppose this monstrosity.
People will see that while you are not required to give up your current situation there are elements that will cause you to lose it. Your employer might decide that it is cheaper to pay the government penalty and drop the coverage he provides. Those on Medicare will be provided fewer services because there will be huge cuts in that program to fund the new one. Illegals will most definitely be covered. There is nothing that says they will but there is nothing that says they will not and the Democrats have already voted against several amendments that would have expressly excluded them. That is because the Democrats want to provide them care but have to use the back door to keep from angering voters. Once they have what they want it will not matter.
Yes, Obama lied and with any luck the health care takeover will die.
But until we bury this monster once and for all, the propaganda wing will continue to provide good PR and skewed polls to make the Messiah look heavenly.
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Tags: health care, illegal aliens, joint session, lies, Obama, reform, speech
I’m not sure I agree that Rep. Wilson owed an apology, Big Dog. The President was downright offensive, obnoxious and bullying to those of us who disagree with and don’t want his healthcare plan to become law. And he was lying out every orifice of his body! How can Democrats cry foul with straight faces at Rep. Wilson after the 8 years of calling President Bush a liar? Not to mention all the other insults.
I can’t wait for next November so we can throw these jackasses out of office. Especially that total *itch, Madame Speaker Pelosi!
Good point fairestwitness. I feel exactly the same way.
I would not have apologized, because sometimes truth MUST be spoken to power-besides, did the demmies ever apologize for booing President Bush during the 2005 State of the Union Address? No- and while two wrongs do not make a right, neither should it be cause for apologies.
Our Dummy-in-Chief said several lies during that speech- I guess the lies about the illegals finally drove Joe over the top- but the look on Pelosi’s face was priceless- it moved, it actually showed emotion- I truly thought that was impossible.
I did not say I disagree with the sentiment but I think it was the wrong forum and that an apology was appropriate. The emotional outburst hurts the cause.
Wilson’s opponent has raised $100,000 since last night.
We need to be smart about the opposition.
And no, they never did apologize but we cannot justify bad behavior by pointing out someone else’s bad behavior.
I agree with what he said but it would have been better if he were on TV shows this morning proving how Obama lied. As it is he just gave ammo to the enemy.
I see that Wilson has raised $200,000 since he spoke out- It is my guess that there are others who feel that speaking truth to power is a good thing, even on the floor of the House.
Sometimes you have to call the liars on their BS, or they think they got away with it- then they think you are the fool.
It really HAD to be said.
Big Dog, Big Dog, Big Dog don’t be afraid of their manufactured outrage. It could have happened anywhere and they are always outraged when someone calls them out on anything.
Sorry Big Dog, but I don’t agree with you. It is about time that someone had the guts to stand up and say you are a liar, and I would not give Obama the satisfaction of an apology. If I had been there, I would have shouted that I agree with Senator Wilson. Obama is a con artist who has a seduction spirit to woo people in, thus they are fooled. Big heads always come to an eventual fall and Obama will hit bottom hard.
Well, there is a rule in the House that Representatives are not allowed to call any president a liar.
I also think that doing this takes the focus off health care and gives credence to Obama’s claim that bitter people are trying to stop health care.
Like I said, I agree with what he said but he could have done it in a better place.
President Obama, Madame Speaker Pelosi and Veep Biden are not worthy of respect. Heckling them as liars is exactly what they have coming to them. And I don’t think Rep. Wilson hurt the cause one iota. So what if the Thug in Chief was called a liar? The man is the biggest threat to this nation’s way of life since the former Soviet Union.
“The juxtaposition of President Obama with the disrespectful Joe Wilson is a true example of where this country’s political system stands today.
One major party is not perfect by a longshot but has a true leader with a plan, dignity, poise, intelligence, passion and respect.
A marginalized little party of angry Southern white men have no arguments so they propagate lies.” –QK
If Obama’s plan said nothing about the status of illegal immigrants, his claim would still be true, and Wilson’s claim false. But it does specifically address their status:
***
H.R. 3200: Sec 246 — NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS
Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.
***
Plain as day, black and white. Obama’s claim, as follows from the transcript his speech, is correct:
“There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false – the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.”
This of course, makes Wilson the liar.
D.
Blah blah Darrel. They are not allowed to check the status of people to see if they are here legally. The bill also says that if one person is eligible for affordability credits in a family then the family is eligible. So since the courts have erred in conferring citizenship to those born here then two illegals could have a kid and it would be eligible thus making them eligible.
The bill does not say they won’t get care, just that there will be no affordability credits. So we would be in the same position we are now. They get care and we pay for it.
And notice it says federal payments. States can still pay for illegals. Wilson is correct. First of all this is the House version and earlier ones did not have this language. Secondly, the Senate is not considering such language. Some in the Senate want illegals to get care. Committees from both chambers have voted against amendments to specifically deny care to illegals.
Obama is the liar. It is semantics but is Obama willing to resign if one illegal get insurance coverage? No because the hospitals and doctors cannot check their status so they will be covered. I know it is tough for you to see.
And just because Obama says it does not mean he is telling the truth.
Like I said it was not in earlier versions, they can’t check status and illegals who live with one legal person will be covered. That is in the bill. Read a little further in that section.
One other thing. I read and will have to research, that the stimulus provided for illegals so it would be dishonest to say this bill will not cover them and then cover them in some other fashion. Look at the language, Nothing in this subtitle (but not in another).
Obama is disheveled which is why he is on TV crying to America.
He will not get what he wants.
Vision for America? Yes, of red flags and Communism.
True leader? He could not lead a group of people out of a burning building.
Oh yeah, his ACORN buddies were caught showing folks how to evade the law in child prostitution and tax evasion. He was a good teacher.
All irrelevant tantrum, smear and evasion except for this:
Bigd: “Wilson is correct.”
DAR
No, he’s not.
Joe Wilson of South Carolina said Obama lied, but he didn’t.
D.
You really need to read the Constitution- you know, the US one….
As has been pointed out, the law CANNOT specifically target an individual group for exclusion, IF EVERYONE ELSE
GETS A BENEFIT. THAT WOULD BE UNCONSTITUTIONAL. And, as everyone else would get healthcare, illegal aliens would have to be included, so Wilson’s call of “Liar” was correct, even if the forum was not.
And Harry Reid called Bush a liar, so I guess he should’ve been punished- so where’s your outrage, D?
Come on, lets see if you can work up some-
still waiting….
BLK: “the law CANNOT specifically target an individual group for exclusion…”>>
DAR
The law does so all the time. Would you like a bunch of examples or would you like to think of a few yourself?
BLK: “everyone else would get healthcare, illegal aliens would have to be included”
DAR
Nonsense.
BLK: “Wilson’s call of “Liar” was correct”
DAR
Anyone who believes that is a loon. No exceptions.
Obama’s three claims:
“There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants [true]. This, too, is false [correct] – the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.” [true]
D.
If you reverse ALL of those statements, you would get to the truth.
Hussein lies- that is the truth- EVERYTIME he opens his mouth. He can’t help it, he’s a compulsive liar, and he is delusional if he thinks his health plan will work.
Wilson’s call of liar was certainly correct, as I am sure in his little coddled childhood, where he was raised by his Granny, because his mom was humping every muslim she could find, noone ever called him on his fantasies or lies.
Too bad- he could of benefitted by a few whippings.
No, D- ALL the sentence relevantly says is,” Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits”… it is these affordability credits that the illegals supposedly COULDN’T buy, when in reality they could, because the Constitution specifically PROHIBITS discrimination- If one group gets it, they all get it- so the provision would be challenged, and defeated in the SC.
Plus, all the illegals would have to do is keep coming to the ER- they would be covered, and federal dollars would be spent, so don’t lie Darrel- it really makes you look like an idiot, and I believe you are not- just wrong- headed.
BLK: ALL the sentence relevantly says is,” Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits”>>
DAR
Which is why Obama’s comment, as follows, is true:
“…the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.”
And don’t forget his first sentence which describes the specific lie he was knocking down:
“There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants…”
Even if the bill didn’t contain this clear statement refuting you, his claim could still be true. The fact that it is there, in black and white plain as day, makes your assertion even more false than normal.
BLK: “Constitution specifically PROHIBITS discrimination”>>
DAR
Let me know if you would like examples refuting your claim.
D.
As your linked article says, the only thing about illegals is they cannot get the tax credits. It goes on to say:
We read all 1,000-plus pages of the health care bill and were struck by the fact that it is largely silent on health care for illegal immigrants.
If it is silent then there will be court challenges and the courts will say that the law does not forbid them from getting the care and having it covered.
No one is allowed to ask immigration status so they will get the care and have it paid for.
If illegals will not be covered then why did the Democrats vote against specific language that would have codified it? And why are the illegal advocacy groups not up in arms. If they felt the would not be covered they would be up in arms reminding Obama of the support they gave him.
Si si pueda…
Wilson sits in the committees. He knows what is going on.
Bigd: “the courts will say that the law does not forbid them from getting the care and having it covered.”>>
DAR
The law, specifically, in black in white, forbids this. Why are you pretending to not be able to understand simple, plain, English?
“ADAIR: Obama is right. When you look at the bill, it does go to some lengths to make sure that illegal immigrants do not get the credits for the health care exchange that would allow them to get free care. They’d have to pay for it, like everybody else. False for Wilson.” –Politifact
“THE FACTS: The House version of the health care bill explicitly prohibits spending any federal money to help illegal immigrants get health care coverage. Illegal immigrants could buy private health insurance, as many do now, and they could also buy into a new government-run insurance plan if Congress creates one. But unlike legal residents, they wouldn’t get federal subsidies to help them. The bill’s exact language: “Nothing in this subtitle shall allow federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully in the United States.” Health care legislation in the Senate is also being crafted to exclude illegal immigrants from coverage.”
Bigd: “why did the Democrats vote against specific language that would have codified it?>>
DAR
I don’t know. Maybe they thought the bill is long and complex enough without trying to do immigration reform too.
Let me tell you a secret. The US has an immigration problem. Your favorite party, the one that likes to pretend it cares about this, had control of all branches of government for six years. They did nothing.
This could be solved in five minutes. These 10-15 million people live, and work, somewhere. Fine the employers, fine the people who rent to them. Done. This hasn’t happened because we are invested in and addicted to our immigration problem. Especially your favorite party because they want these people to pluck their chickens and pick their strawberries.
D.
“Our” party, if you will, had a couple of wars going on, and were busy keeping your goat- loving A** secure, a fact you , like other liberals, love to gloss over- and since tort reform has had scant mention, I would think that your party just loves lawyers and the money they donate- after all, BOTH Husseins- male and female, are lawyers.
Let me tell you a secret- the US has a tort reform problem- too many lawyers, and not enough doctors.
Lawsuits are a Liberal’s IRA- for you all, its like winning the lotto-
BLK: “Our” party, if you will, had a couple of wars going on,>>
DAR
One of them with the wrong county. Oops. That was a boo.
BLK: and were busy keeping [you] secure,>>
DAR
Actually, that was a colossal failure. The greatest security breech and attack on American soil happened under Bush’s completely negligent and incompetent governance. Bush (who wouldn’t even take the time to have a meeting with his counter-terrorism coordinator), and Cheney (who never even bothered to chair a single meeting of the anti-terrorism taskforce he was suppose to led) COMPLETELY dropped the ball and failed to do their jobs.
Oh, and a common lie in your circles is that they kept us safe after screwing the pooch on 9/11. But that’s not true either. People who say this are forgetting the anthrax attacks.
BLK: tort reform has had scant mention,>>
DAR
Tort reform was specifically singled out and given special mention in Obama’s congressional address. Tort reform is a pimple on the arse of our healthcare problems.
D.
You are conveniently “forgetting” Clinton and the first Trade Center attack, and the “Gorelik Wall” he had put into place so our intel people couldn’t interface info- oh THAT was a stunner of a FUBAR, on Bubba’s watch- in his defense, he WAS occupied with a kneeling figure- wait- that’s not a defense, that is recreation. So Clinton was guilty of causing 9/11, because of the barriers he put into place.
Get your facts straight, Dar-
IF illegals are not to be covered, why did limpwristed, spineless demmies defeat two Republican amendments that would have specifically excluded the illegal aliens? The enemies of America deliberately made us less safe and poorer, as we now have to pay for Pedro and his pals.
An affordability credit is a tax credit. There is nothing that keeps them from having their health care paid for with federal money just like there is nothing to prevent abortions from being paid for with taxpayer money.
Abortions are a legal medical procedure. If you don’t like that, work to change the law.
Sometimes I feel sorry that your tax dollars may, in some instances be used (not in this bill, but in other cases) to fund something you consider immoral.
Then I remember that my tax money is used to fight immoral and needless wars that republicans enjoy so much.
Then I don’t feel so bad.
Can’t pick and choose where your tax dollars go. That’s the way it is.
D.
The Constitution only applies to those who are here legally. But if we cannot ask their status then they will certainly get what they want.
Both of your sentences are false.
There are instances in which the Constitution does apply to all “persons.” I explained this to you carefully with references and legal precident. This is not even controversial except perhaps among a few who don’t have even a basic understanding of the document and US law.
It doesn’t follow (non sequiter fallacy) that if you can’t ask for status, “they will certainly get what they want.”
D.
Actually, yes- it DOES follow that if one cannot be questioned about the legality of their status, then they become, by simple default, eligible for benefits that could, would, and should be denied them.
The Constitution should apply only to citizens, or why even bother to go through the trouble to become one?
Are you legal Dar? If so, why? Why did you become a citizen of a country you find so much to fault?
Are you a chronic complainer?
Or did you want the benefits of being a true citizen?
BLK: Why did you become a citizen of a country you find so much to fault?>>
DAR
So I could file a petition for status someone else. Their current one had been bogged down for years.
I work to improve America. Sad to say, the history of those like you, and Bigd, has been to destroy America. An astonishing claim you won’t take seriously I know, but it’s true.
You can read about what I am talking about:
here.
Sad but true.
BLK: Are you a chronic complainer?>>
DAR
Not at all. But boy you are! I am fairly happy with my health care arrangement. It’s pricey and going to get worse but I can afford it. Millions of others cannot.
BLK: Or did you want the benefits of being a true citizen?>>
DAR
Not really. That’s why I waited for 21 years. The only change was the ability to vote, travel under a US passport, and file a petition for status for someone else.
D.
Fixed Link.
Darrel, you continue that lie of the left. Bush and Cheney did not read reports or pay attention. The intel report they got was the updated one Clinton got. No one could determine from the reports that and attack would happen or when. Bin Laden attacked us because Clinton demonstrated weakness in Somalia, he said that himself.
You like to throw out these accusations but you cannot prove these claims. I know you cannot show that anyone could have determined the attacks from the intel we had.
You like to blame Bush but yes, he kept us safe after Clinton’s weakness emboldened our enemies. Clinton had 3, count them, 3 chances to take out OBL and refused to do so.
Obama is a weakling who knows not how to lead. You can be thrilled with him but he knows not how to lead.
Bigd: “You like to blame Bush…”>>
DAR
Who was president when the greatest security breech and attack on American soil was allowed to happen? Do you remember?
Bigd: “You like to throw out these accusations but you cannot prove these claims.”>>
DAR
Give me an example of a claim I made that I cannot prove. Be specific. The truth is in the details. I don’t make claims I can’t back up, and details are my specialty, not yours.
Bigd: “Clinton had 3, count them, 3 chances to take out OBL”>>
DAR
Actually, that’s rightwing rubbish, debunked over and over, including by Bush’s own “counter-terrorism coordinator.” Let me know if you would like me to dismantle it piece by piece for you.
Here’s a nice intro bit to give you the basics:
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_bill_clinton_pass_up_a_chance_1.html
D.
You have pointed nothing out. The courts have decided that some protections under the Constitution apply. The rights of citizens do not apply to them. They are not citizens and have no right to anything. They are entitled, per the courts, to certain protections.
If you cannot determine their status then they will get health care. That follows. If they will be forced to use the ER where they must be seen and the government will reimburse for those visits then they will get care paid for with our tax dollars.
The White House made this admission.
Bigd: “they are not citizens and have no right to anything. They are entitled, per the courts, to certain protections.”>>
DAR
Again you contradict yourself from one sentence to the next.
If they are “entitled to certain protections” (as they are), then it is not true that they “have no right to anything.”
QED.
Bigd: “If you cannot determine their status then they will get health care. That follows.”>>
DAR
No, actually it doesn’t.
Bigd: If they will be forced to use the ER where they must be seen”>>
DAR
Wrong again. You repeat a common myth. People are turned away from ER ALL the time (unless they are dying or giving birth).
Bigd: and the government will reimburse for those visits”>>
DAR
Sometimes. Often the hospital cost shifts to others forcing us all to pay more.
Best to fix health care in a health care bill and fix immigration issues in an immigration bill. See if you can tamp down your hatred of those humans without status long enough for us to fix the health care problems.
D.
That is an outright LIE- people are not turned away from ERs- they may have to wait a long time, depending on how many illegals are there at the time, but they will be seen.
And the government will reimburse those visits.
BLK: “people are not turned away from ERs-“>>
DAR
Health practitioners are no doubt generous and caring. They do what they can and the demand is great. It’s not their fault that the system is so screwed up. But as per the law as I cited last night, unless you are dying or giving birth, if you don’t have insurance or can’t pay, they don’t have to do anything but stabilize you and send you on your way.
BLK: And the government will reimburse those visits.>>
DAR
A stat I read last night said less than half of the cost of unpaid for ER care is reimbursed by the government.
And this:
“According to a May 2003 American Medical Association (AMA) study, emergency physicians annually provide, on average, $138,300 of uncompensated care under the aegis of EMTALA.”
wiki.
D.
Darrel, no war is illegal if it is approved by Congress. These were and they are legal. The Constitution specifically mentions armies and wars. Show me where it mentions abortion. Show me.
Taxpayers should not be paying for abortions. They are not necessary medical procedures. They are elective. Your wife can’t get a boob job and have taxpayers pay for it because it is elective. Abortion is elective and not medically necessary.
We should not be paying for it.
Once again, I will concede if you can point me to the part of the Constitution that says anything about abortion. I don’t want the Roe v Wade decision because they did not find abortion listed in that decision either. They made a mistake. Abortion falls under the 10th Amendment. It is not mentioned so it is not granted to the feds or restricted to the states therefore it belongs to the states or to the people.
Bigd: “Darrel, no war is illegal if it is approved by Congress.”>>
DAR
I didn’t say “illegal” above, I said immoral. Do you understand the difference?
Bigd: “They are not necessary medical procedures. They are elective.”>>
DAR
Rubbish. Would you like examples of women who will die if they can’t get an abortion or are you so dense you don’t know of any yourself?
Years ago I had a huge email debate with a minister about abortion years. I asked him who we should save if we have to choose between the life of the mother or fetus. He was a coward and refused to answer the question. At the time I had a customer who was strongly pro-choice and a nurse (RN). I mentioned this debate and took the chance of asking her if she knew of any examples where an abortion would be necessary to save the life of the mother. She knew lots of them. Now I do too.
Bigd: part of the Constitution that says anything about abortion.>>
DAR
Congress can make laws. Sometimes they make laws regarding abortion. This is grade school stuff.
Bigd: Abortion falls under the 10th Amendment.>>
DAR
So you’re a “tenther” eh? Why am I not surprised.
D.
OOoooohhhh- now there are “tenthers”- what a farce masquerading as logical argument – birthers, truthers, and now tenthers.
Yes- State’s rights are a big deal, that is if you could actually read and UNDERSTAND the Constitution as written, but you lefties seem to have a systemic problem with comprehension of the Constitution AS STATED.
This is obvious when you have so many laws that disregard the Tenth amendment, as well as your attacks on the First, Second, and Fourth amendments- or at least Hussein’s backdoor approach to circumventing the law as regards these and other amendments.
The White House admitted that there is no way to prevent illegals from getting care and having it paid for under the current conditions.
Obama was wrong, he lied. Illegals will get care, as I have demonstrated.
Bigd: “Illegals will get care”>>
DAR
I hope you are right. It’s what Jesus would want.
D.
————-
“The Epistle of James tells us, “If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, and one of you says to them, ‘Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill’ and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that?” If a brother or sister lacks health care, and one of you says, ‘Go in peace; get well and take your medications,’ and yet you give them no way to access their care or their prescriptions, what is the good of that?
Christians care about our neighbors. Jesus taught us to love our neighbors as ourselves. Christians are pro-life, and therefore we are pro-heath care. Christians support things that are good for children and families. Christian values have helped shape our society. Some Christians even claim that this is a Christian nation. What better way to prove ours is a nation that lives out Christian values than to insure that everyone has access to basic health care. Everyone.
What would Jesus do? Who would Jesus leave out? Who would Jesus refuse to heal?”
–Lowell Grisham is an Episcopal priest from Fayetteville. And he’s not a cold-hearted hypocrite.
Now, THAT’S really, really hypocritical- an atheist presuming to know what Jesus would want-
And everyone has access to basic healthcare- they just have to pay for it- what is wrong with that?
I pay for all my health care, despite that canard you spew about how I leech off of you- that would only happen if I did not pay- otherwise you are confusing me with some illegals on the corner.
I see nothing wrong with Doctors and Hospitals making a profit- and while there are some aspects of the Insurance industry that need to be addressed, there is no inherent RIGHT to health care- just the opportunity to have it.
This is a Capitalist country, and despite the traitor in the WH, it will stay that way, so deal with it.
BLK: “really hypocritical- an atheist presuming to know what Jesus would want-“>>
DAR
Actually, everyone is on the exact same footing when it comes to figuring out what Jesus may want. All we have, all of us, are stories in a book written by people who never met him. It’s not a very good foundation but it’s all there is with regard to anything about Jesus.
BLK: “everyone has access to basic healthcare- they just have to pay for it- what is wrong with that?”>>
DAR
I think that’s great. In each of the 36 countries that do a better and cheaper and fairer job of getting healthcare to “everyone,” it is paid for, by “everyone.”
So I think we agree. Kinda.
D.
——————
ps. There is one thing we do know Jesus wanted and he stated it clearly. Note:
“Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.” –Luke 6:30
So I ask you, Mr. Blake, Mr. self professed Christian. Give me all of your money. All of it. I am a man, and I asketh of thee. Now are you going to obey the words of Jesus or are you going to make excuses? We’ll see.
Oh – I need someone to clean my house too. So if you have any daughters, I’d be glad to buy them from you with your money.
Exodus 21:7
Deut 15:12
Read your Bible.
Sorry Darrel, the tax credits that are discussed in the bill do not specifically preclude illegals from being insured. He said that illegals will not be insured. I have clearly demonstrated how they will.
Obama lied.
Bigd: “He said that illegals will not be insured.”>>
DAR
When did he say that? Citation please.
Why would YOU lie about something so obvious?
D.
Your quote:
“There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants [true]. This, too, is false [correct] – the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.” [true]
If he said that it is false to say his reform efforts will insure illegals then he is saying that the truth is it will not.
This, my statement that he said illegals will not be insured is correct.
Don’t try to obfuscate the issue by claiming that he said they would be insured outside of the government because we are discussing the plan and them being insured under it.
Let me explain.
Republicans are going around lying, in the following manner (let me know if you would like specific examples):
rough paraphrase: “Have you heard, Obamacare’s new health care plan is going to give health care to illegal immigrants!”
That’s the distortion he was trying to knock down.
Now. We haven’t the foggiest idea how many there are, maybe 10-15 million of them. These are the fine folks that pluck our chickens and pick our strawberries (and incidentally, we need more of them, I know fruit farms that can’t pick their fruit).
These people need to eat, they need to go to the bathroom, and once in a while, they need to go to a doctor. We can pretend this isn’t true, but in fact, it is true.
I don’t know why they are this way, perhaps it has something to do with them being HUMAN BEINGS.
Some day, some president may get around to dealing with this complex issue. Bush didn’t. St. Reagan did, he gave them amnesty.
Thing is, it’s not too bright to get into a bunch of immigration stuff in a health-care bill. The goal of the health care bill is to fix, apparently with a temporary band-aid, some of the huge problems.
It won’t be enough. If we get single payer, it will probably be a republican that does it (just as Clinton did the welfare), and he won’t be because he wants to but because he has to.
Roughly 40-50% or our healthcare is already socialized btw. But I digress.
This new bill may effect illegals, indirectly. It’s a huge, unwieldy bill with lots of little details still in the works and it’s almost inconceivable that some little bit in it, wouldn’t have an effect, in some way, on such a huge population.
But the goal of the reform is not to cover illegals, as in, give them free or subsidized health care (even though they pay taxes, and SS, and we mooch off this because they will not be collecting SS).
That’s a lie. That’s the lie Obama referred to and according to every mainstream and objective factchecking site, Obama’s claim is right.
If there was any doubt, as a bonus, the bill even *specifically* prohibits such spending, as has been shown to you above, over and over.
Again: “The House version of the health care bill explicitly prohibits spending any federal money to help illegal immigrants get health care coverage. Illegal immigrants could buy private health insurance, as many do now, and they could also buy into a new government-run insurance plan if Congress creates one. But unlike legal residents, they wouldn’t get federal subsidies to help them.”
Now, you can blather on about enforcement, and perhaps that should be strengthened but that is a different issue and one that Obama did not address in his claim.
D.
—————
ps. If you want to get rid of the illegals, fine the employers, fine the landlords (like me). Of if you like your chicken cheap and you like to eat strawberries, give them amnesty. That’s what Jesus would do (just like Reagan).
But don’t deny them simple access to health care and make the women and children suffer. That’s not nice.
Factcheck is not an accurate source. It has been wrong and it is partisan.
It is a matter of record that Clinton had the chance to take OBL out 3 times and did not. You can try to dismantle but you will not succeed.
Factcheck is not credible so try a government source. Try Sandy Berger who removed some of the documents that would bear this out.
Try some of the military folks who had to stand down because Clinton would not give the order or because he did not want to be bothered while playing golf. Ask Buzz Patterson, he was there.
Darrel, you claim that facts are your specialty, not quite. You deal real well in “facts” from sources with agendas and that support your point of view. Your retort when someone has a different set of facts is to claim that they are not valid or not as good as yours.
You have a high opinion of yourself but you are just not that good.
Bigd: Factcheck is not an accurate source.>>
DAR
Genetic fallacy. I have a theory that if you had good arguments, you wouldn’t need to constantly peddle in fallacies.
Bigd: It has been wrong>>
DAR
You give no example but I don’t doubt that they have made a boo at some point. Your task is to show that they are wrong that their well researched and referenced rebuttal in case doesn’t take the nuts off of your claim. And then there are the other piles of standard sources I can provide showing that your claim is baseless.
Bigd: and it is partisan.>>
DAR
It most certainly is not. Note:
***
“Our Mission
We are a nonpartisan, nonprofit “consumer advocate” for voters that aims to reduce the level of deception and confusion in U.S. politics. We monitor the factual accuracy of what is said by major U.S. political players in the form of TV ads, debates, speeches, interviews and news releases. Our goal is to apply the best practices of both journalism and scholarship, and to increase public knowledge and understanding.
FactCheck.org is a project of the Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania. The APPC was established by publisher and philanthropist Walter Annenberg in 1994 to create a community of scholars within the University of Pennsylvania that would address public policy issues at the local, state and federal levels.
The APPC accepts NO funding from business corporations, labor unions, political parties, lobbying organizations or individuals. It is funded primarily by the Annenberg Foundation.”
http://www.factcheck.org/about/
Of course since their goal is to “reduce the level of deception and confusion in U.S. politics” you would find them galling and in quite contrast to your goals which are the exact opposite.
Bidg: It is a matter of record that Clinton had the chance to take OBL out 3 times and did not.>>
DAR
No, it’s a matter of rubbish. It’s a rightwing lie you heard repeated ad nauseum and, as with so many other issues, you are wedded, cult-like, to your false belief. It’s garbage. Make your case and back it up, if you have the testes, and I will demolish it.
Bigd: “Sandy Berger who removed some of the doc**ents that would bear this out.”>>
DAR
What a load. Is there anything so foolish and idiotic that you won’t repeat it? I would like to reach the bottom of your gullibility some day.
Bigd: Darrel, you claim that facts are your specialty, not quite.>>
DAR
I said “details” above, not facts. A little ironic that I would have to point this *detail* out to you.
Bigd: when someone has a different set of facts>>
DAR
People get their own opinions but they do not get their own set of “facts.” Sorry about that.
Bigd: is to claim that they are not valid or not as good as yours.>>
DAR
Well, sorry to say, yours usually aren’t. In this case, you got nothing. Make your case if you dare. I already gave you a standard source and there are lots more. The claim is garbage from top to bottom.
For a nice compilation and debunk of lies you guys like to spread on this issue see:
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/clinton.asp
etc.
D.
Fact check can SAY they are non- partisan, just as ACORN can SAY it is an honest organization- both of those statements would be a lie.
Isn’t Annenberg the same outfit that both Billy Ayers, AND Hussein worked for, the ANNENBERG CHALLENGE, I believe it was called. He (Walter Annenberg) is a HUGE Democrat donor, so I would seriously doubt the “non-partisan” part of your statement, as well as the accuracy of much of what it spews forth.
Get some REAL sources, Dar.
You should Google Walter Annenberg, read a little about the man. Find out who he ran around with and who his friends were. I think you will be surprised. Also, do a little research and find out who the prominent conservatives were that sat on the same board as Barack Obama doling out money for the Chicago Annenberg Challenge.
I think you misunderstand. I said they are not entitled to anything under the Constitution but that PER THE COURTS they are entitled to protection. I did not say they are entitled, only that the courts said it.
People are not turned away all the time. Over half the visits to ERs are non emergent and the people are seen. Doctors do not turn people away for fear of lawsuits. A great JAMA article circa 2005 on it.
I worked in an ER and we never turned anyone away though it would have been good if we had. A lot of people did not need to be there.
Buzz Patterson was there, Snopes was not (and they are left leaning). I will go with what Buzz said happened.
Bigd: “People are not turned away all the time. Over half the visits to ERs are non emergent and the people are seen. Doctors do not turn people away for fear of lawsuits.”>>
DAR
Wrong.
From “The Healing of America”, pg. 218:
“As a rule, you can’t just go to the emergency room in America unless you have the cash or the insurance coverage to pay the bill. Hospitals routinely turn sick people away if they can’t prove they have the means to pay. This is legal. “A hospital is not, as a general rule, required to provide non-emergency care to person unable to pay,” notes the leading US Textbook on the law of health care.” It is also not required to continue treatement in the face of nonpayment of bills.” (11) In the 1980’s, there were several well-publicized cases, sometime caught on videotape, of patients who were “dumped” onto the streets in their hospital robes because they couldn’t pay. The resulting uproar led Congress to pass the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act of 1986… Under EMTALA, any hospital receiving Medicare funds has to admit and treat anybody who is (1) facing severe risk of death, or (2) in active labor, until the patient’s medical condition is “stabilized.”… But most sick people aren’t on the verge of death or in the final stages of chidbirth, so most of the time EMTALA doesn’t help at all. The reality is that you can’t “just go to the emergency room” for the physical exam or the blood test or the breast palpation that could diagnose a disease before it threatens your life. You can’t just go to the ER to refill the prescriptions for the pills that would keep you alive. As NIkki White learned,…”
LINK
Bigd: “Buzz Patterson was there”>>
DAR
That’s nice. And what does Buzz say? Do share your little hearsay anecdote.
D.
Are they anything like your hearsay anecdotes? You have a bunch of them.
Emergency rooms who turn people away without a physician checking them are breaking the EMTALA law. Ask Michelle Obama about it. She worked out a patient dumping scheme to send the uninsured to other hospitals.
Hospitals are not allowed to ask for insurance or ability to pay until after screened by a physician.
Read his book, Dereliction of Duty.
And this would negate your argument that people use the ER all the time and that it is the most expensive blah blah. You just can’t make up your mind, can you?
Why wouldn’t I be a tenther, it is the Constitution. You know nothing.
Certainly there are cases of life or death but they are rare. The millions of abortions performed were almost entirely elective.
If it comes to a choice between the mother and the child the mother and father should decide. However, those are RARE.
Don’t play games with me by telling me what Christians are or would do. You have disdain for them and you do not believe in these things.
I believe everyone is entitled to health care. They are not entitled to have someone else pay for it. As for illegals, they are entitled, and more than welcome, to get it in their own countries.
Your advocacy for illegals getting care (at our expense) disqualifies you from the debate. You obviously have no idea and you have a dream of producers paying for everyone else.
Not going to happen. There will be an armed insurrection before we let it take place.
I know more about Christianity than you.
I think Christians are great (except for the loons).
Bigd: “Your advocacy for illegals getting care (at our expense)…”
DAR
When did I do this? Why do you constantly make things up?
Bigd: “you have a dream of producers paying for everyone else.”
DAR
No, right now I produce and pay to cover Blake’s care should he have an accident (blow a valve in his ticker after all that smoking), and it’s not a “dream,” it’s a nightmare. I wish he would pay for his own risk instead of mooch.
Bigd: “There will be an armed insurrection”
DAR
Good. All the easier to round you clowns up and get you in those re-education camps and turn you into good citizens of the world.
D.
Oooohhh Dar- that would certainly be hazardous to your health- that is , if you had the stones to do that personally- but you, like all spineless libtards, will let others do it for you.
Bigd: “Your advocacy for illegals getting care (at our expense)…”
DAR
When did I do this? Why do you constantly make things up?
Perhaps it was this from an earlier comment:
Bigd: “Illegals will get care”>>
DAR
I hope you are right. It’s what Jesus would want.
I, make things up? Why do you lie about what you said?
Bigd: “Why do you lie about what you said?”>>
DAR
I didn’t. Observe the difference between:
“Your advocacy for illegals getting care (at our expense)…”
And my advocacy for your comment:
“Illegals will get care”
Do you see the difference? (hint: it’s in the parenthesis).
Nice try though! I almost thought you had me for a minute.
D.
Darrel,
You lie. Blake pays his own way.
Illegals are ILLEGAL. Reagan signed amnesty on the promise that the border issue would be fixed. It was an amnesty sponsored by Kennedy like the one in the 60s where they promised to fix the border. We were promised that this would be the last one needed and that fewer people would flood our country.
That did not happen because they did not fix the border. This is why so many people were saying fix the border FIRST on the last go round. Notice it still is not fixed.
We need MORE people to pluck chickens and pick fruit? We have an unemployment rate of 9.7%. There are plenty of people to do the work.
I don’t care how much a chicken or other food costs as long as it bears the market rate. The undervalued workers cost us a fortune.
No, that is not what Obama was trying to dispel. He was trying to pull a fast one. We are tired of being told to trust them (no matter what side) and we want it codified in language that will not leave the door open.
Bigd: Blake pays his own way.>>
DAR
He doesn’t pay for his risk. If he gets cancer, or MS, or his ticker blows a valve and he racks up $200k or any number in excess of his net worth. We’ll (probably) cover his bottom. He’s only one serious accident, illness or hospital bill away from converting to a hardcore liberal! And they’ll probably take him, liberals are so easy going and forgiving.
Bigd: Illegals are ILLEGAL.>>
DAR
Spoken with true tautological brilliance!
Bigd: Reagan signed amnesty on the promise that the border issue would be fixed.>>
DAR
Are you suggesting that Reagan could really have been that dumb?
D.
—————-
“To listen even very briefly to Ronald Reagan is to realize that here is a man upon whose synapses the termites have dined long and hard.” –Christopher Hitchens
Obama said nothing in the bill…
But there is a provision that if one family member is eligible for the affordability credit then all are.
It is a way of getting around the illegal issue. Since the courts have erroneously awarded citizenship to anyone born here then an illegal couple only needs to have a child here and they and (I think the bill says anyone in the same household) all their family will be eligible.
That is providing government paid for health care to illegals, Obama lied.
Bigd; “…there is a provision that if one family member is eligible for the affordability credit then all are.>>
DAR
Show this.
Bigd: “…courts have erroneously awarded citizenship to anyone born here”>>
DAR
What? It’s an error to think that people born here are citizens!?
You really can’t read the Constitution can you?
The “courts”? You mean the supreme court. Who do you think should interpret the Constitution?
D.
People can be turned away under EMTALA as long as they are evaluated by an MD and it is determined not to be an emergency or active labor. In the real world people are not turned away. Once an MD see them he just treats them.
Now this is different if you are Michelle Obama and you work out a patient dumping scheme to send those who cannot pay to other hospitals.
She did that and now they want to run health care…
Annenberg helped Democrats and Republicans alike and was a friend of Reagan. Just because the foundation is named after him does not mean it is non partisan. They had Ayers and Obama working there and they are radical partisans.
The foundation isn’t just named after him. He created it.
Darrel, the words in parentheses are my thoughts. If I were attributing them to you I would not have put them in parentheses. That is how you express a thought that is not a part of the main sentence. I did have you, nice try though.
I am very familiar with the EMTALA law. It requires a person to be evaluated by a physician BEFORE you can ask about insurance or ability to pay. This is to prevent hospitals from pulling a Michelle Obama and refusing patients or dumping them on other hospitals.
It is true that once the person is evaluated by the MD he could say it is not an emergency and send them on their way but the reality is that most people are treated because the doctors figure if they had to examine them to see if it was an emergency they might as well take care of them.
Very few people are turned away.
You keep harping and harping. First of all, you do not have as much right as I to be here. Your mother and grandfather might but you were a citizen of another country. I am natural born and some of my ancestors were American Indians.
So don’t act as if you have some magical right. You are a naturalized citizen who bashes this country. You claim to want to make it better but people like you tear it apart. And until you can show me your enlistment and discharge papers don’t make foolish statements about me taking the country down.
I am tired of you and your condescending attitude. I am tired of the way you talk about this country. You are free to hang out someplace else. I would welcome that.
You have turned open debate into condescending insults being hurled around. You have professed a superior intellect (not that it is evident) and you continue to act as if you have some mission to change the opinions of people here. Well it won’t work so move on to another place where others might be interested in what you have to say.
I am tired of 5 and 6 paragraph cut and paste hack jobs that take up time and space.
And if you are going to take care of momma, take her to Canada. Nothing but the best for momma.
I asked you if you knew the difference between:
a) “Your advocacy for illegals getting care (at our expense)…”
And my advocacy for your comment:
b) “Illegals will get care”
There is a difference.
You claimed “a”, and when I asked “when did I say that” you provided “b.”
So your example evaporates.
With regard to insults, as usual, I will be far more polite than you. I didn’t call you scum today.
Bigd: “…take her to Canada. Nothing but the best for momma.”
DAR
She’s a very religious person that loves Glen Beck (until recently, the other day she said she thinks he may be crazy).
She lived in Canada for 22 years and the US about 43. She may be politically far right but she’s not so dense as to not know that Canada’s medical system is better. She’d take it in a heart beat.
D.