I Vote For Never
by Big Dog on May 29, 2009 at 17:19 Political
Barack Obama warned that if we do not get health care reform done by the end of the year we will not get it done. In keeping with his theme that everything is a crisis and must be done now, he told people that its now or never.
Obama wants to have government run health care along the lines of Medicare and the VA system neither of which is run efficiently. Both programs are top heavy with bureaucrats and are extremely costly. The system of reimbursement cheats physicians and has led some to opt out of accepting Medicare patients.
Given that government does not do anything efficiently or in a cost effective manner, I vote for never. The system needs to be revamped and needs less government regulation and control so the free market can allow insurance companies to be competitive. The requirements placed upon companies add unnecessary items to insurance packages and increase the cost. Additionally, people cannot compete across state lines and that too drives up the cost.
There are things that need to take place but having the government run things is not the answer.
They gave billions of dollars to Chrysler and GM which only delayed the inevitable filing of bankruptcy which left taxpayers high and dry.
We will never see that money again. With government and its slavish union followers running the companies they will surely fail. Government officials have little experience running a business and their actions are politically motivated. Look at how many dealerships where people donated to Republicans were shut down. Failing dealerships that gave lots of money to Democrats and particularly Obama are not being closed.
Business is no place for government. Health care is available for everyone. Sure, some folks will have to pay out of pocket but I am unaware of any provision in our Constitution that says I should be paying for someone else’s health care.
Everyone likes to say Obama is the answer. If Obama is the answer it must have been a stupid question.
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Tags: health care, insurance, Obama, socialism
BIGD: “…government run health care along the lines of Medicare and the VA system neither of which is run efficiently.”
DAR
Actually they are quite efficient and vastly more efficient than private health care systems which feed a morass of hundreds of health insurance companies and all the waste and paper work that such a mess involves (over 200 billion per year down the pipes).
As I have shown you before:
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“The total costs to administer claims for Canada’s public system eats up about 1% of all health care expenditures. In the US, Medicare claims administration costs take about 2-2.5% (US pays on a per hospital stay basis rather than lump sum budgeting as in Canada.) Total administrative costs in Canada including hospital administration and physician’s office costs is about 14% of total spending, as compared to about 25% in the US. Some US insurance costs can devour nearly 1/3 of the dollars spend on health care. Because less money is spend on administration in Canada, Canadians actually get more physician and hospital services than Americans.”
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Health/O_Canada_KP.html
BIGD: They gave billions of dollars to Chrysler and GM… We will never see that money again.>>
DAR
You don’t know that. There is considerable precedent showing that such an investment can pay back handsomely for both parties involved. This happened in the S & L crisis, another banking crisis in the early 90’s and when Clinton bailed Mexico out in a crisis. The republicans screamed that it was a waste and a loss but Mexico paid back that money we loaned them, early, and with interest. Win/win.
The gov will hold about 3/4 of GM stock. It’s a gamble but one worth taking and not nearly as costly as losing the whole thing right now and having all of those workers and retirees falling on the dole.
BIGD: “Failing dealerships that gave lots of money to Democrats and particularly Obama are not being closed.”>>
DAR
What a load.
BIGD: “Health care is available for everyone.”>>
DAR
No, expensive, emergency, last minute care is available for everyone. This is no way to deliver health care to the population of a first world country.
If you have a chronic, long term, no instant fix illness that can’t be patched up quick (as so many people do), and you don’t have insurance, or not enough insurance, in the US, YOU ARE SCREWED.
BIGD: “I am unaware of any provision in our Constitution that says I should be paying for someone else’s health care.”
DAR
You already are and you are paying way to much to feed a profoundly bloated and wasteful system.
Again:
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US Health Care Expensive, Inefficient: Report
“Americans get the poorest health care and yet pay the most compared to five other rich countries. The US health care system ranks last compared with the five other nations on measures of quality, access, efficiency, equity and outcomes, according to a report released on Tuesday.”
http://www.truthout.org/article/us-health-care-expensive-inefficient-report
BigD, did you ever get around to watching this short clip from 60 minutes? I would be interested in hearing, what you think of it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4kbag-f3K8
D.
There is too much being done sloppily or not at all- not everything needs to be done at once- when someone tells me I must do something RIGHT THEN, I tend to rebel and say why? Why can’t we take the time to do this right, not right now?
You’re exactly right Blake.
Let that sink in for a moment.
This is why single payer is not going to happen. The lefties are going to be sorely pissed about that, and especially the fact that there won’t even be an attempt. But I am a pragmatist and am interested in what will work. Obama is too, that’s why he is going to have to take the heat from the left and bite the bullet to actually work toward something that has a very good chance of passing. The US is not ready for single payer IMO. Too many ninnies wedded to an imaginary ideal of “rugged individualism” and basically, selfishness.
As to when to do it, it’s important to get cracking. Old folks hitting medicare age is going to be a profound fiscal burden and cost, and even the rate of increase of costs, have to be brought to sane levels. The US simply cannot afford to keep feeding the trillion dollar health-care beast. We are far too broke.
D.
If health care remains private, the government doesn’t feed the beast- you want to fix health care, then you definitely do not want to put the government in the mix. They can’t find their own butt with both hands and a map.
Health care remains private and the government certainly does feed the beast. See medicare.
I disagree – I think healthcare is available and if anyone is so concerned about providing healthcare to those without it, they should feel free to sponsor such a family and pay for their healthcare out of their pocket. It is about personal responsibility again – which for some reason the current administration fails to understand the concept of. If you are unable to afford healthcare for your children, you should not have them. If your job does not provide it (before the massive increase in unemployment at least) you were free to look for another one. Somehow all the illegals manage to get their healthcare without a problem.
I am paying for others to have proper health care, and for their food, and cigarettes, and babies, and seafood, and the list goes on. It’s time we realize that making people responsible for their own lives and expenses is the answer to the question and is certainly what will work. No one wants to be the bad guy and tell all those folks waiting on a check that it’s time to get a job and be responsible for their own lives.
Lawsuits need to be curtailed. Healthcare prices and providers may need to do some readjusting and negotiating to make life easier and more affordable. Illegal immigration needs to be addressed and those who are not citizens should not be provided any but the most basic care (prior to sending them home, of course). This will work and is the best way to start getting things in order in our own house. The last thing we need is our cumbersome, lame, corrupt, greedy government officials sticking their nose in our health. How about Congress and the Prez give up their healthcare and go into the regular system like the rest of us. Things might change for the better then..
Funny, Darrel always touts Canada’s system for health care and claims he lived there for 21 years.
He now lives in the US. If it was so great, why not go back?
I lived there from 1966 to 1987. Germany’s system is better (and probably several other countries too) so I don’t say what I do about Canada’s system to be patriotic, but rather to be accurate. The US could/should have a better system rather worse.
I am heavily invested in the US, and the success of the US. This is why I do what I can to swat down the silly bunnies that work to misinform people and make the populace more stupid. The US can not function well with such a high ratio of political, right-wing, cult members.
Mostly I stayed here because I like the weather. My mother and many relatives live here. Father’s side is Canadian.
All of my claims can be easily verified.
D.
All of your claims can be verified:
1. About the VA system: Actually they are quite efficient and vastly more efficient than private health care systems… Being a beneficiary of the VA system I can say that, after 2 years, I’m still waiting for a couple surgeries that will allow me to broaden my current job qualifications. Oh yeah, BTW, Illinois, South Carolina, and Michigan have cut funding to verterans’ service organizations such as the VFW because they just “don’t have the money”. That just means the 10 miles of red tape has to be done alone by people who are much more screwed up than I am. Oh yeah, and my WWII veteran grandfather was just told by the VA they can no longer pay for his chemo because his cancer is too advanced and the odds of the chemo actually working are slim to none. He now has 6 months to 3 years. Nice, huh?
2. Germany’s system is better… To an extent, yes, but they have NO income tax and pay a 19% (VAT) on everything they purchase, no exceptions to those who earn less. I’ve also had lengthy discussions about gov’t health care with my neighbor and my landlord and they are not big fans of their system. The LL would like to go see his mother’s Dr about some issues because they are hereditary but he can’t because he doesn’t live in that area (because everyone here is REQUIRED BY LAW to have an ID stating their address). My neighbor isn’t happy that the paperwork took so long for his wife to see an oncologist. BTW, her cancer was too agressive by the time she made it and she died w/in 6 months of her first oncology appt even though her primary care physician “diagnosed” her at least a year in advance. Had she been seen immediately, she would probably still be alive.
So tout your gov’t health care all you want. I still have another month to wait before I have my pre-surgery consultation, my grandfather is still dying, and my neighbor’s wife is still dead.
My claim that government run systems are “quite efficient and vastly more efficient” was backed up by reference to the actual numbers. You give anecdotes. I have those too but they hardly dispute the *actual numbers.* The VA does their health care “in house” to keep the costs down, obviously. If they had to feed the for profit private industry the costs would be unbelievably higher than they already are. Which means we would have to borrow more money from China to feed the private health care beast.
Regarding “VA cuts because they don’t have the money” well, that’s the way it is. America’s broke and over the years has been really good at creating a vast number of veterans with health problems. What would you suggest they do? They don’t, have, the money. Maybe we, with 5% of the world’s population, don’t need to spend as much as the rest of the world combined, on the military?
MOTHER: “VA they can no longer pay for his chemo”
This NEVER happens in HMO’s or with private insurance companies does it? I am kidding. It happens routinely. The more care they deny, the more money they make. At least the VA takes the profit out of the process.
2) Germany DOES have an “income tax”
“The rate of income tax in Germany increases progressively, ranging from 0% to 45% (marginal tax rate).”
–http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Germany
Regarding not being able to visit a certain doctor in Germany, that’s poor. Under Canada’s system, anyone can visit any doctor because every doctor is in the same system. There’s no “in network” or “out of network.”
You suggest that someone died because they had to wait a year after being diagnosed with cancer by their primary care physician. That’s absurd (and intolerable if accurate). Anecdotes are common but aren’t worth much.
If you are interested in this health care issue and the US, you might be interested in seeing this short video from CBS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4kbag-f3K8
D.
Yes, with state- run health care, they want you to die-less work for them, and they are the government- they don’t care.
Its like SS- they delay and delay on disability, hoping you die so they don’t have to pay out any money.
My brother, who served in the Army, had to wait for so long to get tested, that he now has stage three liver cancer- and they could have caught it at least a year earlier, but the VA is government run.
Sorry, not buying it. Socialized medicine does not work. Canadians complain and many people from other countries love to come here to be treated.
We lived for a long time without government intrusion and people paid their own way.
As for the ER, start turning people away who are not emergencies. This is legal under EMTALA and only requires a physicians to screen to see if it is an emergency. Send all others away.
Make people avail themselves of the free clinics and other items and if they go to a doctor make them pay their bill.
For those with jobs who have no insurance, they can get a new job. I believe that was you solution for the Marine in the HOA, he can just move.
Then these people can just get new jobs.
And who will do the old jobs? And those who do, will not have insurance so we will be paying the bill when they show up in emergency.
And the cycle repeats. What a dumb and wasteful system.
BIGD: “Canadians complain”
DAR
Whining is a universal human trait. Canadians are very proud of their health care system and no politician would dare run on a platform of changing to something like what the US has. When my dad comes to visit from Canada he and his wife buy special insurance so they are covered down here and they watch the days carefully. They are terrified of being caught down here without coverage. And with good reason. Not so much because of the quality, but of the potential cost.
BIGD: and many people from other countries love to come here to be treated.>>
DAR
There is a whole industry serving Americans who now go to India, Singapore, Thailand etc., for first class health care which they can get for a fraction of the cost. It’s called “medical tourism.” People come, people go. And as I recently mentioned, Canada has a problem with Americans coming over and trying to sneak health care. Many Americans are desperate. It’s embarrassing. It should be embarrassing.
BIGD: We lived for a long time without government intrusion and people paid their own way.>>
DAR
And in 1900 the life expectancy was 58. Times change, standards improve.
BIGD: As for the ER, start turning people away who are not emergencies.>>
DAR
This is the solution to America’s health care mess? Turn more people away? You should run for office and make that your theme. See how it plays.
D.
I recently had a patient diagnosed with a spinal mass on Friday. He was in to see the surgeon on Tuesday, in the hospital Wednesday (but was bumped to Friday) and had surgery to remove the mass.
This was all in one week.
You will not find that in Canada or anywhere else.
I have seen chest pain patients diagnosed as needing cardiac surgery at 7am and they are in recovery around noon.
That happens here and no where else.
“Mythbusting Canadian Health Care — Part I”
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3. Wait times in Canada are horrendous.
True and False again — it depends on which province you live in, and what’s wrong with you. Canada’s health care system runs on federal guidelines that ensure uniform standards of care, but each territory and province administers its own program. Some provinces don’t plan their facilities well enough; in those, you can have waits. Some do better. As a general rule, the farther north you live, the harder it is to get to care, simply because the doctors and hospitals are concentrated in the south. But that’s just as true in any rural county in the U.S.
You can hear the bitching about it no matter where you live, though. The percentage of Canadians who’d consider giving up their beloved system consistently languishes in the single digits. A few years ago, a TV show asked Canadians to name the Greatest Canadian in history; and in a broad national consensus, they gave the honor to Tommy Douglas, the Saskatchewan premier who is considered the father of the country’s health care system. (And no, it had nothing to do with the fact that he was also Kiefer Sutherland’s grandfather.). In spite of that, though, grousing about health care is still unofficially Canada’s third national sport after curling and hockey.
And for the country’s newspapers, it’s a prime watchdogging opportunity. Any little thing goes sideways at the local hospital, and it’s on the front pages the next day. Those kinds of stories sell papers, because everyone is invested in that system and has a personal stake in how well it functions. The American system might benefit from this kind of constant scrutiny, because it’s certainly one of the things that keeps the quality high. But it also makes people think it’s far worse than it is.
Critics should be reminded that the American system is not exactly instant-on, either. When I lived in California, I had excellent insurance, and got my care through one of the best university-based systems in the nation. Yet I routinely had to wait anywhere from six to twelve weeks to get in to see a specialist. Non-emergency surgical waits could be anywhere from four weeks to four months. After two years in the BC [British Columbia] system, I’m finding the experience to be pretty much comparable, and often better. The notable exception is MRIs, which were easy in California, but can take many months to get here. (It’s the number one thing people go over the border for.) Other than that, urban Canadians get care about as fast as urban Americans do.”
http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/mythbusting-canadian-health-care-part-i#comments
D.
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“The journal Health Affairs recently published the results of a survey of the medical experience of “sicker adults” in six countries, including Canada, Britain, Germany and the United States. The responses don’t support claims about superior service from the U.S. system. It’s true that Americans generally have shorter waits for elective surgery than Canadians or Britons, although German waits are even shorter. But Americans do worse by some important measures: we find it harder than citizens of other advanced countries to see a doctor when we need one, and our system is more, not less, rife with medical errors.
Above all, Americans are far more likely than others to forgo treatment because they can’t afford it. Forty percent of the Americans surveyed failed to fill a prescription because of cost. A third were deterred by cost from seeing a doctor when sick or from getting recommended tests or follow-up.” –Paul Krugman, NYT, 11/07/05