Late Term Abortion Performed At Church
by Big Dog on May 31, 2009 at 14:40 Political
A gunman reportedly shot and killed Dr. George Tiller a man who performs(ed) late term abortions. The local authorities have not released the name of the victim but it is being reported as Tiller. Police are looking for the murderer (besides Tiller).
I don’t think this is the way to settle problems and despite how meathead takes my rants I would never kill someone to settle a dispute unless the dispute involved the potential and immediate harm to me or my family. I would shoot someone who broke in my home but would not shoot a neighbor with whom I disagreed. This is an important distinction because some less intelligent people take it literally when you say someone should be shot or hanged for some infraction.
If they catch this guy he should claim that he was guilty of practicing medicine without a license. He could say that he wanted to perform a late term abortion but since he has no medical training he did not know how late “late term” was. He could claim that he performed a late term abortion on Tiller but lacked any training to determine when it was too late.
Tiller can now rot in hell where he belongs. What was that guy doing in church in the first place?
This picture is what Tiller did for a living. (disturbing photo)
Source:
Fox News
UPDATE: This is in a news story: The shooting prompted U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder to direct federal marshals to “offer protection to other appropriate people and facilities around the nation,” according to a statement from the Department of Justice.
The Marine recruiting office in Berkeley has been under attack for years but I have never seen US Marshals deployed to protect the facility or the people working there. Of course, the Marines can do a much better job than the US Marshals if we just let them handle it…
One guy is murdered and Holder is offering protection all over.
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Tags: crime, george tiller, gunman, late term abortion, murder
I cried when I looked at a few of these pictures and think about the pain these precious little ones went through. Thank God they are now in the hands of Jesus. Tiller will pay for every baby he aborted. Obama should have to look at every one of these pictures and actually watch a live abortion. I would like to see these sent to him.
Better to be in the hands of Doctor Tiller than the hands of Jesus who has set up the system so that the vast majority of humankind not only feels some discomfort and then oblivion (what Tiller caused, perhaps), but rather the eternal burning fires of hell (Jesus’ plan).
BIGD: Tiller can now rot in hell where he belongs.>>
DAR: Kind of takes the wind out of supposed “pro-life” idea. But we knew that was a hollow title anyway. And death isn’t even good enough for those who get such sadistic morals from the Bible, he “belongs” in hell where he can be tortured for all eternity.
BIGD: What was that guy doing in church in the first place?>>
DAR
This was a Christian church so it looks to the Bible, which as I explained, is pro-choice from start to finish. There is no evidence a fetus has any value in the Bible.
But even the Bible recognizes, at times, that murdering a human being is wrong. Apparently the “pro-lifer” who murdered this man in his place of worship didn’t take those verses into consideration today. Most Christians ignore most of the Bible any way. They pick and choose what feels right and goes along with their secular moral sense. And for this we can all be thankful.
D.
——————
“God so loved the world that he made up his mind to damn a large majority of the human race.” –Robert G. Ingersoll (1833-1899)
Tiller was probably seeking forgiveness for his sins in that church, but like many hypocrites, he was going to go back out on Monday and do the same thing again.
Darrel must hate religion.
I do find it interesting that liberals see no problem with murdering the innocent, while conservatives see no problem with killing the guilty. Who’s right? Who deserves death, the innocent child, or the murdering, rapist? Gee, is that a hard call? Really?
Mr. Tiller had just been in court and had been exonerated by the jury in accordance with the rule of law.
Do you believe in laws, in the rule of law, the Constitution etc., or are you perhaps an anarchist? You can’t have it both ways.
D.
There is a great gulf in our society today between the Law, and Justice- hell, sometimes they aren’t even in the same BUILDING. A jury can exonerate a man on a point of law, even when they feel that morally he is guilty.
That is the problem with many of you libbies- everything is a gray area with you. Not always true, though- sometimes there is black and white, wrong or right.
You should seriously consider this,
I have a feeling this was set up to make “right wing extremists” look like threats.
I could be wrong though.
Stranger things have happened…..
That is because right wing extremists have a spine- liberals do not.
Those pictures.. is that real?? Surely not.. surely in this day and age people haven’t gotten so far from their morals.. I’m just sick, sick, sick! I have always been pro-life but never have ever seen images of late term or partial birth abortions.
Killing is wrong – the man that killed that doctor was wrong to kill..
That said.. how can that doctor go to church?? How can he honestly profess a belief in God? Doesn’t he know that murder is a sin? Doesn’t he know that Jesus especially embraced children as the way to heaven? I just don’t understand.
If I was the minister at that church, I would not allow him in my services. No way, that man walks with the devil.
And while God never spoke; “Thou shalt not kill fetuses” I think it’s safe to assume that God would be against killing them. Did he not say we are created in his image?
Pictures like these get handed around for their emotional appeal by people who have very strong beliefs but not such good reasons for those beliefs. What we don’t know about this picture:
a) was this fetus alive or already deceased?
b) was it in some sense alive but with out a brain or heart or major organ?
c) was it diseased in some other way that may have been a harm to the mother?
It’s one thing to show some gruesome surgical picture but without this background information, even the emotional attempt fails.
Regarding God never saying “Thou shalt not kill fetuses” or that he would be against killing them, not so. He certainly did command that fetuses be killed, on many occasions.
Regarding “children being the way to heaven,” consider the following examples of how children were viewed and treated in the Bible:
****
1) According to God’s law, children are not persons but the property of their fathers, who may sell them as slaves (Exodus 21:7).
2) God promised to send wild animals to kill and eat the children of the Hebrews if they didn’t obey him. If they still didn’t obey him, he promised to make them kill and eat their children themselves (Leviticus 26:29; Deuteronomy 28:53).
3) God frequently ordered the Hebrews to kill all of the people in the lands they conquered. This includes slaughtering all the children and all pregnant women (Deuteronomy 2:34; etc.).
4) If you do not obey God, he will punish your children and your children’s children unto the third and fourth generation (Exodus 20:5, 34:7; etc.).
5) The bible says, “Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts” (Hosea 9:14)
6) God says a “stubborn son” can be killed (Deut. 21:18)
7) God kills Uriah’s seven day old infant because David sinned. (2 Samuel 12:15)
8) God sends a bear to kill 42 children for teasing a prophet (2 Kings 2:23-24)
9) God says, “Kill both man and woman, infant and suckling…” (1 Samuel 15:3).
10) God says, “dash their children, and rip up their women with child.” (2 Kings 8:12)
11) God says, “Happy is he that dashes your little ones against the stones” (Psalm 137:9).
12) God says, “slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children” (Ezekiel 9:6)
13) Because some adults offended God, he deliberately drowned the entire human race (except the Noah family). This included every little child and every pregnant woman (Genesis 6 & 7).
More:
Here is a small sampling of biblical commandments or threats to kill children:
* Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones.
* I Samuel 15:3 slay both man and woman, infant and suckling.
* 2 Kings 15:16 all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.
* Isaiah 13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled and their wives ravished.
* Isaiah 13:18 They shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.
* Lamentations 2:20 Shall the women eat their fruit, and children.
* Hosea 13:16 their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
***
DAR
This is the Bible, this is what it says. Look it up, read the context. There is a whole industry built up around making all sorts of excuses for why the above actions were supposed to be okay but none of them make sense to our modern sense of morality, or any moral sense period. This is gruesome behavior that certainly would have made for some very nasty pictures. Modern christian scholarship acknowledges that a fetus had no value in the Bible.
Regarding, how this doctor could “go to church,” consider the following:
***
Do Churches Support Abortion Rights?
Numerous Christian denominations and religious groups agree that the Bible does not condemn abortion and that abortion should continue to be legal. These include:
* American Baptist Churches-USA
* American Ethical Union
* American Friends (Quaker) Service Committee
* American Jewish Congress
* Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
* Episcopal Church
* Lutheran Women’s Caucus
* Moravian Church in America-Northern Province
* Presbyterian Church (USA)
* Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
* Union of American Hebrew Congregations
* Unitarian Universalist Association
* United Church of Christ
* United Methodist Church
* United Synagogue of America
* Women’s Caucus Church of the Brethren
* YWCA
* Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice
* Catholics for Free Choice
* Evangelicals for Choice
More here:
http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/abortion.php
D.
I just look at it like Tiller was retro actively aborted- some people need to know that there are consequences for their actions. Personally, I believe he got what he deserved and less- Perhaps it would have been more like justice if someone could have treated him as he did to the babies he killed. Am I sorry he is dead? No.
You make a lot of good points. I should have been more specific and referenced Jesus instead of God. I agree – the Old Testament’s God was a brutal guy. I should have included that I was really focusing on the New Testament as Jesus is the root of Christianity.
I agree with your points about the picture. My concern is with abortions performed on perfectly viable fetuses/partially born babies, etc.
I do NOT agree with passing out pictures like those in order to “inspire” anyone to be against abortions.
I do know a lot of Christian groups favor abortion.. but if you look at Christianity as being those who seek to follow and live by Jesus’ example then it’s a little hypocritical. While the God of the Old Testament may have been all for infant killing, Jesus did not, to my knowledge, command, recommend, or speak favorably of abortion or killing of babies.
As far as being a Catholic and being pro-abortion, well, according to the core beliefs of the Church you aren’t *supposed* to be able to be in favor of abortion and be a Catholic at the same time. Is that stopping people? No. Technically they are committing a mortal sin in the eyes of the Church. Are they being punished for it or cast out? No. Whatever happens after they die is another matter that no one can really speak on. I personally am Catholic and believe that if you are pro-abortion you should really find a more suitable Church but that’s my opinion and has no bearing on the above events.
I said if I was the minister I wouldn’t allow him in. That’s strictly my own opinion – not really condemning the minister or that church.
I don’t support any form of killing except in cases where the mother’s life is endangered. And murdering an abortion doctor is just plain stupid and wrong.
I want to say I appreciate your input and want to thank you for not resorting to name calling or rude posts.
Wow Darrel, you sure didn’t prove anything. If you went to school and did that to a textbook to draw conclusions for a paper you would be lucky to escape with a “D”. The sad thing is that you troll to compell people to agree with your conclusions.
Let me give you a clue.
The God of the OT is the God of the NT. The purpose of the Law was to reveal sin. The OT shows God’s justice, His judgement and His love.
The NT is the full revelation of God’s mercy and justice because the cross satisfied His justice and it liberated His grace. Grace and truth came to the human race through Jesus Christ. Sin has been dealt with and the message for you is to repent and believe the good news of God’s forgiveness of sin and reconciliation to Him.
If you think you can commend sin to God – look at the cross.
Darrel likes to split hairs in defining what or who is human- this I guess, salves his conscience as he argues against the horror of those pictures and the wrongness of that procedure and the doctor.
D thinks that calling something a fetus makes it alright- and he accuses me of being delusional.
CONRAD: “The sad thing is that you troll to compell people to agree with your conclusions.”>>
DAR
And you don’t try to be persuasive in getting people to agree with *your* conclusions? Of course you do. This is why you post and why I post. Now you might consider trying your best to make good arguments for your conclusions so others might find them compelling. That’s what I do.
CON: “Let me give you a clue.
The God of the OT is the God of the NT.”>>
DAR
Thank you for pointing that out. I was just getting around to making that point. So when Maria says:
“I should have been more specific and referenced Jesus instead of God.”
She is forgetting that Jesus is God, God is Jesus, they are one, timeless, unchangeable, forever and ever amen. See the Trinity.
So it makes no sense to say Jesus is an improved version of the OT God, he is, as you say, the very same (timeless, unchangeable) God.
And this God never said a word against abortion, and repeatedly ordered the wholesale slaughter of women, children and pregnant women (see verses above). The Jews, the Bible, do not consider a fetus, a person.
Christians are terribly confused about their Bible and standard Christian scholarship on this issue. The Bible is not “pro-life.” Far from it. If you would like to know how to begin, you might check out a little tract I wrote on this:
“Does the Bible consider the fetus a person?”
http://fayfreethinkers.com/tracts/fetus.shtml
D.
—————-
Extra credit:
http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/abortion.php
Darrel: “The Jews, the Bible, do not consider a fetus, a person.”
I’d recommend starting your study with Exodus 21.22.
As you work through it you’ll note that some children were filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb. In Luke 1.15 the Greek preposition (even from his Mother’s womb) indicates the time from when it would take place.
You can finish by doing a word study on the word “fool” in Proverbs.
Actually Darrel, I wasn’t forgetting that they are Three in One. But, see, the miracle and the mystery of the Trinity is that they are Separate but the Same. Jesus Christ is the basis of Christianity. Not the Old Testament. Christians are called to follow the ways of Christ, not the ways of his vengeful Father. Conrad hit the nail on the head with what he said.
I don’t look to the Bible for specific quotes to speak out against abortion because abortion wasn’t something these people were dealing with back then.
Instead, what you are to look at are Christ’s teachings and, yes, God the Father’s teachings. God tells us not to kill. Jesus tells us not to kill. So.. um.. that means NO killing! Killing a fetus is the same thing.. it’s a no no! Catholics are supposed to believe that life begins at the moment of conception, this is a firm and solid core belief. It’s not something that should be open for debate.
I’m not one of those people that feel compelled to back up everything I say with quotes from the Bible. I feel that it’s not a huge leap to assume that Jesus would have said that abortion is bad.
Jesus also didn’t say don’t take nude pictures of your children and post them online but I think you can agree that he would not approve of such activities. Therefore to say that he did not specifically address abortion so he must be neutral is to misinterpret the very essence of who and what Jesus is.
CON: Darrel: “The Jews, the Bible, do not consider a fetus, a person.”
I’d recommend starting your study with Exodus 21.22.>>
DAR
Yes, I have studied that verse extensively (and the one before it). It is dealt with at the link I provided for you (it’s #1 actually). I have also posted quite a bit about that verse on this forum. Here is one post:
http://www.onebigdog.net/what-is-the-big-deal/comment-page-1/#comment-130254
CON: “As you work through it you’ll note that some children were filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb. In Luke 1.15>>
DAR
I suppose the Holy Spirit can inhabit what it wishes. Perhaps when the donkey in the Bible was talking it had some Holy Spirit in it. This doesn’t mean what is inhabited by the Holy Spirit, is a person. The Bible also has spirits inhabiting pigs etc.,. This didn’t make the pigs into persons.
Personally, I don’t take books with talking animals, and spirit inhabited animals, too seriously. It’s a good policy.
If Jesus or Yahweh had something against abortion I don’t see why they couldn’t have spared a moment to say so. After all, The Bible contains over 600 laws governing everything from fabrics to how to cut a beard yet contains no law prohibiting abortion. Nothing. And yet we have many examples of God commanding pregnant women to be run through with the sword. “But keep the virgins for yourself.”
I wonder if a God wrote that or if perhaps a man did?
We also have solid evidence that the Jews, and the Jews of the Bible, did not consider a fetus a person. Just like now, except we at least count them when they were born. The Hebrews waited about a month.
D.
ps. If you would like to some standard scholarly Christian scholarship on this, I posted a short excerpt here:
http://fayfreethinkers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1477&start=140#p18651
MARIA: “…the miracle and the mystery of the Trinity is that they are Separate but the Same.>>
DAR
Yes that is an interesting mystery. I have a whole chapter on the “mystery” of the trinity in my little book about biblical inerrancy. Some sects, reading the same (inerrant) Bible don’t find a doctrine of the trinity at all. I’m about 60/40. There are lots of verses on each side. At a minimum it’s an incoherent, contradictory doctrine. As one prominent protestant put it:
***
“The Bible teaches us that God is in Three Persons. God is One, but He is manifested in Three Persons. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Don’t ask me to explain it—I can’t. It’s impossible for me to explain to you the Holy Trinity. I accept it by faith.”
—Billy Graham, The Quotable Billy Graham (1966) Droke House Pub
MAR: “abortion wasn’t something these people were dealing with back then.”>>
DAR: Actually, they were. It goes way back.
MAR: God tells us not to kill. Jesus tells us not to kill.>>
DAR
Really? You might have one or two verses, but for every one you can find I can give you twenty where God said to kill. So let’s put him down in the undecided column on the killing issue.
MAR: So.. um.. that means NO killing! Killing a fetus is the same thing.. it’s a no no!>>
DAR
No, it’s question begging. Killing persons is one category, killing animals is another (and quite approved, God really loves the smell of burning goat flesh for some reason). Killing a fetus? Not mentioned, and the two instances where miscarriages are referred to in the Bible, the result is that the fetus is treated as less than a person and of little or no value.
MAR: Catholics are supposed to believe that life begins at the moment of c
conception,… It’s not… open for debate.>>
DAR
Actually, if you read up on your church history, you will find that it has not been so consistent over the years on this. There has been much disagreement among church leaders. I was reading about this at, I think, the abortion category at religioustolerance.org.
MAR: I feel that it’s not a huge leap to assume that Jesus would have said that abortion is bad.>>
DAR
I understand. It’s not possible to argue or disagree with what someone may assume Jesus would have maybe said if he had gotten around to it. What God chose preserve in scripture is Jesus being completely silent on the issue of abortion. If it’s so important, it could have used a sentence. A word against slaver would have bee nice too.
Then the Christians would have something to point too to back up this belief. As it stands, the Bible is pro-choice and there is no evidence that a fetus is considered a person in the Bible. Quite the opposite.
I entirely respect a persons position that abortion is morally wrong. I even have a friend who is pro-choice who he says would never allow an abortion of his child, no exceptions. My only point is one cannot appeal to the Bible, based upon good scholarship, to support this belief. Yet so many do. I wish Christians knew their Bible better.
D.
Darrel, you are a friggin idiot. You equivocate, bounce around the conservative blogosphere (after your usual bullcrap at my place, you come here) acting like a little boy troll and you want us (or anyone) to take you seriously?
Fayetteville Free Thinkers? Oh PUH-LEZE!!! It is your website where you pick up pieces here and there and then brag about it to your few little sycophants. When you get an original idea, please let us know. We’ll kill the fatted calf just for you! (NOT)!
No GM, I already know you take me seriously. I post here rather than on your site because you censor by locking threads after I make my points. If you were confident, you wouldn’t need to do that. I hate censorship, and I really don’t like intellectual cowardice. All I ask for is a level playing field and a little honesty in exchanges. The insults, I ignore. Post here, post on my forum, don’t care. If you subtract the insults from your above post, as usual, there is nothing left. No substance. And that’s unfortunate. You can do better.
D.
Maria, those pictures are real, and no matter what happens next, the man has paid for his sins.
In the Bible men had rule over women’s lives as well. God never said to just kill unborn children for the sake of killing them. They were killed as part of a punishment.
I know you want to rationalize the partial birth abortion by asking questions about this child in the picture. Most of these kids have nothing wrong with them other than they were not wanted.
There is no proof needed that something was wrong, this is what a child looks like when it is aborted in the partial birth procedure and the child looks like this if it had a problem or was perfectly healthy.
You cannot rationalize the procedure by claiming that something might have been wrong. Something might not. Regardless, the result is the same and many of the babies are perfectly healthy up until they are murdered.
I have to admit though, when I read what some liberals write and their disdain for life as well as their general boorish behavior, I wish their mother’s had aborted them.
You make a valid point!
I’ll definitely be following your blog from now on, I agree with you! 🙂
BIGD: “They were killed as part of a punishment.”
DAR
Oh really. How does it make sense that a fetus should need to be “punished”?
You guess about the background of this picture but you back none of it up. Nor any of your claims about “most of these kids.”
You say you want states to decide (and note: Roe v. Wade only references first trimester abortions). Yet this doctor was operating according to the law in his state. He had had clinics burned down and repeatedly sabotaged and he had been shot in both arms in a previous assassination attempt. This time they gunned him down in his church. And Blake thinks that’s just great.
Sometimes it’s not necessary to point out when someones moral budget is in deficit.
D.
————–
See a 30sec clip of Mr. Tiller describing the above:
http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/kansas-doctor-george-tiller-killed-toda
I think it is a form of justice, yes I do, D- I save my sympathy for children and animals, they do nothing to warrant the hell life visits on them- adults should know that actions have consequences, and Tiller should have known that some one who didn’t like what he did would possibly do him harm. After all this was not his first go round with being shot- “Shoot me once, shame on you, shoot me twice, shame on me.”
Was the shooting legal? Of course not, and the shooter will be punished, for actions do have consequences- was it worth it to the killer to rid the world of another killer?
Perhaps only he will know.
Nowhere did I say that I thought this was “great”- just another case of you putting words in other’s mouths.
What I did say was that there are consequences for one’s actions, and tiller has paid for his, as will his alleged killer.
Get it right,D- at least do THAT.
To quote:
“I believe he got what he deserved and less…”
–Blake
DAR
When I said “great” I wasn’t quoting you, I was speaking informally about your position. You think it was fine in that you think “he got what he deserved and less.”
D.
I do think that what happened was Karmic justice, D- Yes I do, I stand by those statements I have made. You feel differently, I understand, but to say think what happened is to infer a quantitativeness to my statements that assumes a level of “satisfaction” that isn’t there. What happened, happened-
[…] Big Dog is the first I have seen to notice this breaking story. The shooting prompted U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder to direct federal marshals to “offer protection to other appropriate people and facilities around the nation,” according to a statement from the Department of Justice. – CNN […]
may tiller be placed in the hottest part of hell forever and ever
the attorney general is just a slimy piece of shit like obama
I understand where the killer was coming from I mean he was just killing a killer anyways… but what was more disturbing was the familys reply saying that he did nothing but good for women.. yeah killing almost born children is good for a human… most of the babies he killed could probably cry already… I mean there are so many people out there willing to take in a helpless baby.. so tiller slightly deserved what was coming for him… btw/ I like the title of the blog…
He got what he deserves. Plain and simple. And if pro-choice people are so willing to get a non-essential abortion, they should be willing to get sterilized in the process. At least then they would be prevented from getting another one in the future.
Funny, because I know people who have gotten abortions and gone on to happily raise children.
Your parents should have been sterilized the second they met.
Yes,and I have known people who have given children up for adoption, and later then had other happy children, and their adopted children were also raised happy and ALIVE.
I’ve known a “woman” to get an abortion and then get another a few months later yet tell me how much she wants a child… Riddle me that one Dw/M. I also know people who have children because someone did not abort an unwanted child. One of my best friend’s and her husband have a beautiful baby thanks to a 16yo girl with more scrupples than you have every had. And thanks to my mother not being one of the people who revert to abortion, she had me (out of wedlock) so I could sit here and say the following:
If anyone’s parents should have been sterilized, it was yours. Or, since obviously they didn’t, I hoped they fudged your circumcision so you, at least, cannot procreate. Asswipe.
“how can that doctor go to church”
He was just trying to fit in with the countless other jack-offs who, because they hit their knees every Sunday, believe that their idiotic, antisocial behavior the rest of the week can be excused.
The people commenting in this thread are swine, and of course ignorant to boot. Fewer than 1.5% of abortions occur after 21 weeks, let alone in “late term,” but you’re all such blinkered suckers for “pro-life” propaganda that you can’t be bothered with facts and data.
It’s not propaganda if it is true, Dances- and because people do not believe as you do, you call us swine. How utterly “enlightened” of you, and of course, backed up by… your bias. What a surprise!
The facts are that you know nothing, but that IS NOT a surprise. If your sole intent is to spew vitriol, there are other sites where your mouth might be a better fit.
Most abortion clinics won’t perform abortions after 21 weeks because they (horror of horrors!) find it unethical. I believe Blake chose irony for the title of the blog because he considered this man’s murder as a “late-term abortion”.
And your choice of “screen name” proves that you are the pig (ie, swine), not those of us who believe that abortions (in my case with the exceptions of rape, incest, and threat to the mother’s health) should not happen.
a mother- thanks for the belief that it was I who wrote this post, but it was Big Dog all the way on this one. On his behalf, though, i thank you.
Sorry, Big Dog. My own spawn was distracting me so I didn’t even think to look.
“…their disdain for life as well as their general boorish behavior”
Great, another irony meter blown.
For the definition of “boorish behavior” see “Dances with MILFs”
Now that’s irony.
Witness the radical right wing at it’s worst in both the way this man was murdered and the way many of you feel like this man has now been punished for his sins. Get rid of those sick baby pictures that have no story or details behind them. Take a look in the mirror right away and you’ll find something much more worthy of your disgust.
The very fact that yo see no problem here is emblematic of the problem in society, where we marginalize the innocent, yet raise the murderers to an exalted place in your mind, Adam. What he did was morally wrong- what the ALLEGED killer of the baby killer did was not right either, but as I said, actions have consequences, and considering that what this man did for a living was what it was, he should have known the possibility exists, just as if you go into the wrong neighborhood, you might get car- jacked. The possibility exists, and as I have said, I save my sympathy for children and animals- they never deserve the sadness they all too often receive.
“…the ALLEGED killer of the baby killer”
Right, as if there’s some question as to whether he pulled the trigger.
Here’s what this guy, Scott Roeder, posted on Operation Rescue’s Web site in 2007:
It seems as though what is happening in Kansas could be compared to the “lawlessness” which is spoken of in the Bible. Tiller is the concentration camp “Mengele” of our day and needs to be stopped before he and those who protect him bring judgement upon our nation.
Also: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389×5755484
1997 — Scott Roeder is sentenced to sixteen months in state prison for parole violations following a 1996 conviction for having bomb components in his car trunk. Roeder, a sovereign citizen and tax protester, violated his parole by not filing tax returns or providing his social security number to his employer.
A certified lunatic.
Do past misdeeds mean he is necessarily guilty of this? He may very well be, but until his trial, he is presumed innocent, or is that just what you libbies say when the suspect is a liberal?
Since, as I understand it, this guy was not caught with a smoking gun, but was found driving the car, we might think he is guilty, but the presumption of innocence still must prevail. If he had been caught standing over the body with the smoking gun, perhaps we might be more certain, but still he must go through a trial to be found guilty.
Does anyone here besides Darrel know how to spell or write in comprehensible English? The correlation between right-wing nutball posts and grammatical and spelling incompetence is so strong, it’s eerie.
The reason you’re swine is because your blood lust is transparent. Paraphrased, Big Dog’s post was “it’s wrong to kill but he had it coming.” Why even bother with an obviously false disclaimer?
The first comment in this sad thread set the tone nicely, with its semi-coherent babble about Satan. The Bible is like a powerful psychedelic drug or one that induces a Dwon-syndrome-like state in its most avid champions.
Anyone who is truly pro-life would condemn this murder, period. But your ilk is all about vengeful thoughts and deeds. I can’t wait for James Dobson to finally die so I can crow about it on the Internet and do my best imitation of Big Dog and his goofball acolytes.
Boy, talk about a wingnut- you are worse than Adam- at least he can state an argument without the vitriol. You are all hate and no substance here.
Oh- comprehensible english? Like the”Dwon syndrome” you speak of?
I do believe it is spelled Down Syndrome, for your education.
And I am not Pro- Life, I am Pro- Innocent Life.
You, I couldn’t care less- you pay your money, you take your chances.
Wimp.
There’s a difference between a few typos here and there and prose that is littered with clumsy usage and various kinds of basic mistakes. It’s actually Down syndrome (no capital “s”).
“Pro- Life, I am Pro- Innocent Life”
I thought no one was innocent and we’re all born sinners. Why should foetuses get off the hook?
Oh–and me, full of vitriol? The fact that someone can title a post in as crass a way as Big Dog did and have all these dingbats here chime in with words of assent reveals the absent moral character of right-wingers and cafeteria Christians.
While I hate to get into Biblical debates with non-believers who think they know the Bible better than any one else, I have to quote the following:
Matthew 18:1-6 – At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, but whoever causes on of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth in the depth of the sea.”
You paraphrased it to be what you imagined it meant. No where does it say that. As for grammar and spelling, I think I can handle myself but this kind of attack is what transpires when one has no cogent argument.
Adam, I would like you to point out where I defended what happened.
I have no idea why you quoted what you did, as it has no bearing on, well, anything. Heaven is a ludicrous concept, the purview of puerile minds and deluded, brainwashed seekers.
You are a stereotypical hypocrite for Jesus, and worthy of all the respect that title implies. I’m sure you’ll get a pass for calling me an “asswipe” (not that I care), whereas if I resorted to such terminology my comments would never get though.
Aahhh- so you are an atheist- I shall pray for you, and no- you have said quite enough to show your ignorance- your name shows that clearly enough- an attempt to be clever? Or an attempt to be young? I wonder.
You have succeeded at stupid, though- you have that down pat.
It has a lot to do with what the tangent was about. It says that children show the way to heaven. If you don’t believe in it, I’m so sorry for you. And you are the stereotypical hypocrite. You think it’s ok for this guy to perform abortions but it’s not ok for someone to kill him. Yes, I believe that his killer should be tried in a court of law but it is God who will try Tiller and the rest of us when our respective days come.
And just because you don’t believe the way we do and must, there for, insult us does not make you a bigger man. It’s called posturing and it just proves that you have little fatith in your lack of faith.
The pot calling the kettle black–really credible don’t you think.
Dances with MILFs:
You are a stereotypical hypocrite for Jesus, and worthy of all the respect that title implies.
Anyone who is truly pro-life would condemn this murder, period. But your ilk is all about vengeful thoughts and deeds. I can’t wait for James Dobson to finally die so I can crow about it on the Internet and do my best imitation of Big Dog and his goofball acolytes.
Why should fetuses get off the hook? (Extremely sensitive and intelligent question (sarc)
The people here may sound hypocritical to you but at least they have a sense of the need for some justice for the countless innocent babies who are being killed daily in their mothers wombs and for the ones being dragged out of there and having scissors poked into their brains as this man did. You on the other hand have only a need for revenge on Big Dog and some of the commentors here and absolutely no care for the babies at all. That is why my vote is with the BD. This is why they and I would not be good as the judge for the guy who pulled the trigger but then that is not our job but you seem to think it is your job to judge the commentors here.
Dances:
Heaven is a ludicrous concept, the purview of puerile minds and deluded, brainwashed seekers.
I think you need to only look as far as yourself before calling anyone else, childish, deluded and brainwashed. All wisdom begins with God and not with man’s peabrain.
victoria- you can lead an ass to knowledge, but you can’t make him think.
If you believe in Heaven, you are an idiot. If you believe in Christianity in any guise, you are an idiot. There is no point in trying to have a conversation with you, because you are beyond the reach of sensible discourse. You want to give this murderer a pass at all costs, and that makes you loathsome.
Why o why is it the libbies who feel that they get a pass to so self righteously scorn any who believe? I don’t mind atheists but I detest self righteous fools who feel as if they can impose their non belief system on us.
If I am wrong about God, all I have lost is my time which is my own- If you are wrong, and there is a God, you are screwed.
I’ll take my way, but feel free to do as you wish.
I don’t recall ever saying this guy did something that was right or that he should be defended. He is innocent until proven guilty and if found guilty he should pay whatever price the court decides.
I merely offer some advice for his defense and everyone is entitled to defense even if they are guilty.
I also point out that the Marines in Berkeley have been under attack and the Ag has not asked the Marshal service to see if they need protection (then again if the Marines were allowed to fight the scum that attacks them it would not be an issue).
You can decry those who believe in Heaven or are Christians but we are free to believe as we wish. We don’t denigrate you for your beliefs or lack of them so why is it necessary for you to do that. Perhaps it is your insecurity.
Someone, who I usually disagree with, said about Dr. Tillers shooting:
“Ask yourself, ‘What will those who have not yet decided personally where they stand on this issue take away from today’s event in Kansas?'”
I think there are many on this board who should really think hard when asking yourselves this question.
And what should be the conclusion? That murder is wrong? We knew this, but did Dr. Tiller? As we all know, there is a grand gulf between that which is morally right, and that which is legal.
You aren’t thinking hard enough so I’ll answer it for you Blake. Folks who are undecided on the issue are not likely to be swayed to the anti-abortion (or pro life?)way of thinking by this event.
Think about it. You do want support for your cause right?
Randy,
It is an interesting question. I thought the same thing when I read about it because some wacko will define the issue. So along that line I ask this. What will those who have not yet decided if Islam is bad or good stand on the issue after reading this:
Muslim Convert kills soldier
Should one person define the issue?
It’s the insincere condemnation of Dr. Tillers suspected murderer and the wish that the victim suffers an eternity of torture by Americans that make the question relevant. I suspect the man that murdered the soldier at the recruiting station will whole heartedly by condemned by a majority of folks across the political spectrum.
It is not insincere. It is what it is. He was shot and I would prefer it not have happened but it did. The shooter will get his day in court and Tiller will be where he would have eventually gone any way.
The person who allegedly shot Tiller will get his day in court, and no- I am not jumping up and down with glee, or even tacitly approving of what happened, but I do think there is a sense of Karmic justice here- he killed babies, he was killed- there are reactions for your actions.
After being shot once before, do you think perhaps he might have thought that it could happen again?
Right Blake, exactly the point of the question. And this is to you and Big Dog both.
“What will those who have not yet decided if Islam is bad or good stand on the issue after reading this (link to article about the military recruiter center shooting)?”
That’s Big Dogs question. I think it’s fair. Every Muslim should ask themselves that if they even start to consider that even though they condemn the actions of the recruiting center shooter, they think it was Karmic justice nonetheless. How would that be perceived? Pro-lifers need to look within themselves when putting forth the idea that justice was in any way, shape or form served by the murder of Dr. Tiller. I think that is what the person that originally posed that question had in mind.
I wpould again refer you to my above comment concerning Karmic justice. What Tiller did was wrong, and he knew that feelings ran high- his clinic had been bombed, he had been shot before,
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. For his families sake he should have anticipated this might happen again, and taken care, but he did not.
Now, lets talk for a second about what he did- he killed viable babies, that is the truth- these babies probably could have, in many cases, breathed on their own, and cried, and they were in many cases killed because they were inconvenient- that is murder. I can understand the rationale for the woman’s health, but that was not true in many cases- this is why often he did not seek a second opinion. This was wrong- I do not say this in justification of his killer, just as a fact.
His alleged killer will get his day in court, and if convicted, will be punished- that’s the law.
And it might seem from the overwhelming silence on the part of the Muslim world that many do believe that what has happened to the U.S. and/ or this soldier was karmic justice. They sure haven’t condemned it, have they?
I don’t recall the post having any hint that justice was served. The reality is that the man was murdered. I will not lose one second of sleep over it. The guy who allegedly did it will get his day in court and he will be punished if found guilty, just as he should be.
He is no hero and what he did was wrong but he did it nonetheless.
I think the guy who killed the soldiers was influenced by the violent teachings of Islam but I don’t believe all Muslims are of this mind. And how could they consider the soldiers as having done anything bad? They were fresh out of training so they have not been to war.
That’s fine, and I’m glad you feel that the murder was wrong and said so. Blake stated that he felt some sort of Karmic justice had been served. I only asked that the question be considered.
Did the other soldier die? Last I had read, one died and one was injured. Regardless, the incident is tragic and the murder heinous. I am not going to try and figure out why the man who did this felt justified in doing what he did, because I can in no way, shape of form justify it myself.
I have not heard about the other soldier. I can’t justify any of it and I can’t figure it out. As with the Tiller murderer, the guy who shot the troops will have his day in court and be punished if found guilty.
The post never said the murder was right, only offered a defense for the guy.
Last word was the second soldier was injured but in stable condition so I believe it’s safe to assume that he’s ok besides the bullet wound. Like certain sects of Christianity that are taught that their ways are the only ways, certain sects of Muslims are taught the same but for the most part, both religions believe that lives are sacred and should be treated as such and only the extremists take it to extremes.
I believe the other guy is still alive. As to your question, I feel the same about Islam as I did before- just because this guy “converted” to Islam doesn’t shift the blame to Islam- this is still on him.
This is just as we can’t blame Christianity for David Koresh or Waco- when you pervert the teachings of a religion, it is not the religion’s fault, is it? To blame a religion for someone’s twisted interpretation of it makes a person no better than Darrel, who has some “issues” with Christianity.