More On The Misinformation Front
by Big Dog on Feb 3, 2010 at 11:31 Political
Barack Obama and James Carville like to call the last decade the lost decade. It is a swipe at George Bush and the assertion is that the economy was terrible while he was in office. Randall Hoven at American Thinker has a great post up comparing the years and how we did and it is broken down by which party controlled the government.
This should drive the Democrats nuts (OK, it is more like a short putt):
So that “lost decade” was really just five lost years: the years when Republicans did not control Congress. When Republicans did control Congress, all of ten years in the last eighty, the economy did just fine — better than most recent decade averages.
Let me be clear. We got “lost” only when Democrats took over Congress. That is a fact.
Not to worry, the Obama apologists who frequent here will come up with some defense of the anointed one.
The Canadian premier of Newfoundland and Labrador is coming to America for heart surgery:
The Canadian premier of Newfoundland and Labrador will be coming to the US for heart surgery for a procedure his deputy claims is not available in his home province. Just One Minute
I am certain that someone will point out that this guy’s province is small and does not offer the surgery that is needed and that this is the case all over Canada depending on where people live and what the population is. This is the excuse we hear when they make excuses for wait times.
But surely this surgery is offered somewhere in Canada. You mean to tell me this guy could not find some place in Canada, with its wonderful health care, where he could get the heart surgery he needs?
No, he is wealthy and he is coming to America to get his surgery. He is coming here for a reason and it is not that the surgery is not offered in his province…
Washington Post columnist Richard Cohen does not feel safe under Obama [Big Dog Salute to Just One Minute]:
There is almost nothing the Obama administration does regarding terrorism that makes me feel safer. Whether it is guaranteeing captured terrorists that they will not be waterboarded, reciting terrorists their rights, or the legally meandering and confusing rule that some terrorists will be tried in military tribunals and some in civilian courts, what is missing is a firm recognition that what comes first is not the message sent to America’s critics but the message sent to Americans themselves. When, oh when, will this administration wake up?
Bit by bit, circumstances are forcing President Obama and his aides to come to grips with reality.
Hey Richard, welcome to the club.
Bonus
Republicans get more in fundraising money in December.
That’s the wrap up for now. As always, your comments are appreciated.
[tip]If you enjoy what you read consider signing up to receive email notification of new posts. There are several options in the sidebar and I am sure you can find one that suits you. If you prefer, consider adding this site to your favorite feed reader. If you receive emails and wish to stop them follow the instructions included in the email.[/tip]
Tags: canadian health care, democrat, fundraising, national security, Obama, republican
Bigd: “More On The Misinformation Front”>>
DAR
Hey, wouldn’t THAT make a catchy new subtitle for you?
Bigd: “The Canadian premier of Newfoundland and Labrador will be coming to the US for heart surgery…”>>
DAR
Gee, if a fellow goes from one state to the next for a specialized surgery (maybe because it’s closer or there are only a few people who do a certain procedure) would this be a big deal? No, of course not.
So I’ll see your one premier and raise you bunches:
****
Medical Tourism Canada
Medical Tourism in Canada is fast becoming popular to foreign patients particularly to the Americans. Health experts around the world have cited that the quality of healthcare in Canada is equal or even better than what the United States can offer. But what attracts foreigners even more is the fact that they can save 30 to 60 percent on the costs of medical treatments in Canada than in the US.
The cost of in-hospital treatment in the US is definitely higher, usually double the price than in Canada. There are also more medical staff like nurses in Canada. Medicines are also more affordable in Canada than in the US.”
A few reasons why:
***
* Average in-hospital treatment costs are nearly twice as much in the U.S. ($20,673 U.S. vs. $10,373)
* There are 9.9 qualified nurses per 1000 population in Canada as compared to 7.9 nurses per 1000 population in US (so you get a highly personalized care!)
* Overall satisfaction with the surgical experience is similar in both countries (85.3% U.S. and 83.5% Canada).
* The number of acute care hospital beds in Canada is 3.0 per 1000 population as compared to 2.8 in US
* Canadians have lower rates of in-hospital mortality (1.4% Canada vs. 2.2% U.S.).
* Administrative costs consume more of the total cost of treatment in the U.S. (38.2% of total costs in the U.S. vs. 31.7% in Canada).
* In-hospital cost of coronary artery bypass graft surgery (CABG) in the U.S. is 82.5 % higher in the U.S. than in Canada.
* The mortality rate for end-stage renal disease is 47% higher in the U.S. than in Canada. Adjusted monthly costs of treatment are $503 higher in the U.S.
* Advantage for 13 of the 15 kinds of cancer studied.
* One-year mortality rates following myocardial infarction are virtually identical for both countries (34.3% U.S. vs. 34.4% Canada).
Etc.
When we get a better functioning medical system than the Canadians have Bigd, I’ll be the first to crow about it. I wish it was the case now. We do have a far better postal system. Canada’s sucks. The US’s rocks. Did you know they don’t even pick up your mail? You have to take it to the Post office. Pathetic.
When considering how a country is doing in the medical category we don’t consider whether one fellow goes across the border for a special procedure, we consider things like results, access, coverage and cost. And Canada does better in all of those categories. I wish that weren’t the case.
D.
————
“A recent study (PDF) found that 90 percent of Canadians support universal, single-payer health care. A poll taken last summer shows 82 percent of Canadians believe their health care system to be better than the US’s…”
I guarantee they don’t think their postal service is better! (and if they did, they would be wrong)
That Canuk is coming to the States because they do not have that procedure there without waiting 8- 10 months- something he couldn’t do.Welcome to the essence of Owe-bamacare. It is death panel by bureaucracy.
BLK: “they do not have that procedure there without waiting 8- 10 months-“>>
DAR
How can you say that without knowing the “procedure” in question? You can’t. So again you’re pulling things from your bum and fashioning the material into bizarre shapes. Since you do this all the time, doesn’t this make you a hypocrite every time you try to challenge the honesty of anyone else?
Why yes it does.
Darrel here is a copy of a full article. You seem to like to try to baffle with statistics the real point. Nice try but no cigar.
Canadian province premier bails on single-payer system for surgery
posted at 9:25 am on February 2, 2010 by Ed Morrissey
Last August, in the middle of a season of politician-roasting town halls over the government overhaul of the American health-care system, the Detroit Free Press reported that our neighbors to the north had begun contracting with American hospitals to handle overflow from their oft-praised single-payer system. The effort by Canada attempted to legitimize a natural flow of people with means across the border to seek the immediate care that Canada’s fully-public system could not provide. That story didn’t get too much traction in either the US or Canada, mainly due to the efforts of politicians in both countries insisting that central control of the health-care sector is necessary for reform.
However, that may change now that a prominent politician in Canada has followed the same path as many of his fellow citizens in order to save his own life:
Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Danny Williams is set to undergo heart surgery this week in the United States.
CBC News confirmed Monday that Williams, 60, left the province earlier in the day and will have surgery later in the week.
The premier’s office provided few details, beyond confirming that he would have heart surgery and saying that it was not necessarily a routine procedure.
If an American governor had to go outside the US to seek the kind of immediate care he needed, that would be considered scandalous. In fact, if an American governor had to leave his or her own state to seek expert care, I’d expect it to be a fairly controversial move, unless it was treatment for a rather exotic malady that perhaps only a Mayo clinic could handle.
In this case, one of the governing elite that insists on imposing a single-payer system on the rest of the country has opted out of it when the going got tough. Williams passionately defended the socialist system in Canada as recently as 2008.The motto among the statists seems to be: State-controlled access for thee, instant access for me.
The CEO of Toyota (Akio Toyoda) recently left from a conference in an Audi. Now, we can draw all kinds of conclusions about that to make political points or we can just agree that it’s anecdotal at best and says nothing about Toyota vehicles. The same goes with the talk of health care in this thread.
I do find it funny thought that Darrel’s very liberal use of sources and facts baffles you and other conservatives on this site. Figures. If it’s not “common sense” then I guess conservatives have no use for it…
You think that him driving an Audi doesn’t make a point? Lexus, as you know, is high- end Toyotas- and yet he chose an Audi?
What it says first and foremost, is that he thinks Toyotas are beneath his stature- and perhaps that Audis have (correctly) a better reputation for safety.
VIC quotes: “our neighbors to the north had begun contracting with American hospitals to handle overflow from their oft-praised single-payer system. The effort by Canada attempted to legitimize a natural flow of people with means across the border to seek the immediate care that Canada’s fully-public system could not provide. That story didn’t get too much traction in either the US or Canada…>>
DAR
Ha ha. Here’s why “the story didn’t get much traction.”
***
“‘We did a deal with the University of Washington at Seattle’ said Hutchinton [Canadian medical consultant]… to take 50 bypass cases at $18,000 per head, almost $3,000 higher than the cost in Vancouver, with all the money [paid by] the province..In theory, the Seattle operations promised to take the heat off the Ministry of Health [in Canada] until a fourth heart surgery unit opened in the Vancouver suburb of New Westminster. If the first batch of Seattle bypasses went smoothly..then the government planned to buy three of four more 50-head blocks. But four weeks after announcing the plan, health administrators had to admit they were stumped. ‘As of now..we’ve have nine people sign up. The opposition party, the press, everybody’s making a big stink about our waiting lists. And we’ve got [only] nine people signed up! The surgeons ask their patients and they say, “I’d rather wait,” We thought we could get maybe two hundred and fifty done down in Seattle..but if nobody wants to go to Seattle, we’re stuck,'”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada
Snort.
Regarding Danny, you really don’t have ANY details yet. He is wealthy and a conservative (and a Newfie) so is it a big surprise that he might be a hypocrite? Not too much of a stretch there! But again, this is all silliness. I remember in the eighties hearing how a Canadian company made the mechanical arm for the space shuttle.
Oh no! America is too incompetent to make a mechanical arm for their own space shuttle! In reality, in medical and space technology there are specialties that sometimes cross a political border.
Thanks for the laughs. Gotta run to my pianos, more later.
D.
BLK: “You think that him driving an Audi doesn’t make a point?”>>
DAR
I found this very surprising. It’s all over on the message boards and one ABC article makes reference to it. The bunk is summarized nicely in this statement:
“Wow… He was in Switzerland attending a conference. I am sure he didn’t drive from Japan in his vehicle. He probably didn’t even pick out his vehicle. Isn’t Audi made around those parts?” Link
DAR
Thus, it was a rental and we don’t even know if he had a choice.
D.
quote from NRO–“Williams, who opted for surgery in the U.S. on the recommendation of his Canadian doctors, was among an estimated 41,000 Canadians who sought health care in the states in 2009 due to long waiting lists and poor access at home.”
“patients in Canada must also wait for operations according to priority: “emergent — you’re done right away,” “urgent — you’re done in a few days” or “elective — you may have to wait for a while, because you’re not at any significant risk.” Patients can wait as long as 26 weeks for bypass surgery, and even the highest-priority cases can wait as long as two weeks for treatment.”
“According to the Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI), Newfoundland has the highest heart attack rates in Canada, and does comparably poorly in treating them. The risk of dying in a hospital in Newfoundland within 30 days of adittance for a heart attack is 10.9 percent, while the Canadian national average is 9.4 percent.”
“He is wealthy and a conservative (and a Newfie) so is it a big surprise that he might be a hypocrite?”
Whether he is wealthy, a conservative or a Newfie or a hypocrite does not change anything so snort and laugh all you want to. Your continued delusions give me a lot of laughs as well. Especially you thinking you have debunked something that I quoted. I quoted nothing and the fact that you can’t even tell that shows me your reading comprehension level.
Interestingly, Darrel is from Canada where life is so much better but he came to AMERICA.
Now there is a hypocrite. If it is better there, why live here? Obviously, the opportunity was BETTER here.
So enjoy it here but if you want to bring part of home here then you need to go home instead. You are welcome but leave what you left behind right where you left it.
“So enjoy it here but if you want to bring part of home here then you need to go home instead.”
There goes Big Dog, always one to support the melting pot that is “AMERICA.”
I have always been supportive of those who come here LEGALLY so don’t play this game.
If you love what you had where you had it then go back there for it. Why should those of us from here who like what we have be subjected to the whims of someone who left his own country of origin for a better life here?
It is obvious that people come here because it is better and if you don’t think it is then stay in your own country.
Bigd: Darrel is from Canada where life is so much better…>>
DAR
Let’s be honest. You’re right. In many, important, objectively measurable categories the system of government, or the people, or whatever you mean by “life” is better in Canada. That’s why they do so well on the Human Development Index.
Bigd” Now there is a hypocrite.>>
DAR
Apparently you don’t know what the word hypocrite means. And if I move to Costa Rica or the Netherlands someday this means…?
If I acknowledge that any car is better than the car I have chosen to own, does this make me a hypocrite? Think. Repeat if necessary.
Bigd: If it is better there, why live here?>>
DAR
I’m on a mission from God.
Bigd: the opportunity was BETTER here.>>
DAR
The weather is better here. I would have done quite well in Canada too. But going for a swim in the lake, cold. Here? Toasty warm.
Bigd: if you want to bring part of home here then you need to go home instead.>>
DAR
No, I think I’ll bring some of the better aspects here. You need my help and influence. And we’ve got to keep the dumb dumbs down.
D.
I have managed quite well for all these years without you and will continue to do so. It is a matter of personal responsibility and I have that so I will do just fine but thanks for your concern.
As for life being better there than here it all depends on who you ask. Our government has the longest standing Constitution in all the world and we are a model. We would be even better if the government lived by the Constitution instead of making us lawless.
Regardless, you chose to come here so live by how it is. You don’t like it then go back and buy a house with an indoor pool. That would help keep the dumb dumbs down as well.
One fewer to deal with.
VIC quotes: “…an estimated 41,000 Canadians who sought health care in the states in 2009>>
DAR
I’ve knocked this down before but let’s revisit:
***
# In a Canadian National Population Health Survey of 17,276 Canadian residents, it was reported that only 0.5% sought medical care in the U.S. in the previous year. Of these, less than a quarter had traveled to the U.S. expressly to get that care.[72]
# A 2002 study by Katz, Cardiff, et al, reported the number of Canadians using U.S. services to be “barely detectible relative to the use of care by Canadians at home” and that the results “do not support the widespread perception that Canadian residents seek care extensively in the United States.”
Link
Let’s compare that to:
“…a recent study by the UCLA Center for Health Policy Research estimated that nearly 1 million people from California alone seek medical, dental or prescription services in Mexico each year.”
Link.
Oh my, that rather NUKES your SINGLE anecdote doesn’t it?
VIC quotes: “patients in Canada must also wait for operations according to priority: “emergent — you’re done right away,”>>
DAR
In the US, you’re broke, tough noogies! Canada does them all.
“In a recent survey, only 3.5 percent of Canadians reported feeling that they waited too long for care…” Link
VIC quote: “Newfoundland… 10.9 percent, while the Canadian national average is 9.4 percent.”>>
DAR
Barely statistically significant. Statistics by Province vary just as statistics by state vary in the US.
VIC: Especially you thinking you have debunked something that I quoted. I quoted nothing…”>>
DAR
You quoted nothing? You really shouldn’t speak of delusion then because you clearly quoted almost all of the above, as you clearly referred to in your very first sentence, and I quote:
“Darrel here is a copy of a full article.”
That’s what I referred to as quoted.
D.
Well now, since people FEEL theirs is better then it must be. What a way to do a poll. Do you feel that John Edwards is a great guy, ooohhh we feel that way so it must be.
And what would people who feel this way have to compare to?
BIGD: “Well now, since people FEEL theirs is better then it must be.”>>
DAR
Nope. That wouldn’t follow at all and certainly was not the claim. I have given you no end of well referenced scientific data which give good reason to think that proposition true, but not this poll. This poll just shows what they think. Which is important in it’s own way.
Bigd: What a way to do a poll.>>
DAR
Yeah, how bizarre. If you want to know what people think about something, you ask them what they think about it. How do you do it here?
Bigd: Do you feel that John Edwards is a great guy, ooohhh we feel that way so it must be.”>>
DAR
Ridiculous. Nonsense. Unless you are interested in know “what people think.” You can ask people what they think of him and their answer only gets you what they think of him. Incidentally, I’ve always disliked the guy and thought we was a smooth talking stuffed shirt. Turns out I have a nose for character eh?
As I posted in our forum two weeks ago:
John Edwards Now Most Unpopular Figure Anywhere, Anytime: Pollster.
Oh, and if you want to see some good hypocrisy in action, read the blurb and consider your party of “family values”:
“Other philanderers like Sen. David Vitter (R-La.) and John Ensign (R-Nev.) now have respectable approval ratings, Jensen relayed, in part because their political party was willing to stomach their transgressions.
“What we find is that Republicans will forgive you for cheating on your wife as long as you are a Republican,” said Jensen. “Democrats are not forgiving Edwards.” –ibid
Maybe a hundred other examples here.
Bigd: And what would people who feel this way have to compare to?”>>
DAR
The fact that “90 percent of Canadians support universal, single-payer health care” simply informs you that they are quite pleased with their system.
Incidentally, about half of the US docs now support a single payer system. That number has risen steadily over the years.
Poll: Doctors Among Public Option’s Biggest Fans.
We’ll get it some day. Probably in my life time. Once a state gets it, everyone else will want it. That’s how it happened in Canada, in 1966. On these ethical and fairness issues, sometimes you guys are a little slow. Conservatives, a little bit retarded on the ethical and fairness issues.
D.
Massachusetts has it and no one else wants it. Costs too much and people are being denied care and required to pay more than they were told they would. I don’t know where they got the doctors for this since other surveys show doctors oppose the plan especially since they already lose money treating Medicare patients. Many doctors have stopped accepting them, even one of the clinics Obama said was a model.
You really want to make the claim that Democrats hold cheating spouses accountable? Perhaps the Clinton thing escaped you. Democrats are not forgiving Edwards because he cheated on his dying wife, and he continually lied about it. Remember, they are the ones who said that what goes on in private is no one’s business (see Clinton). And the Edwards thing was an example, and not presented as an actual poll.
So Canadians support what they have. The majority here does not want what the government is selling. Most folks are happy with what they have and do not want it changed to accomodate a small minority.
Fix it for them and leave us alone.
Bigd: “Massachusetts has it and no one else wants it.”
DAR
Enacted by a republican governor, voted for and supported by your Scott Brown… and the money shot: “By a 68-27 margin, voters in last Tuesday’s election supported the universal health care law in Massachusetts…”
Link.
Mass. has it, wants it, and a lot of other people want it too. They’ll get it someday.
Bigd: “people are being denied care”>>
DAR
This is America, I thought they could just go to emergency and send me the bloated bill?
Bigd: and required to pay more than they were told they would.>>
DAR
That’s never happened before!
Bigd: already lose money treating Medicare patients.>>
DAR
So you think Medicare rates should go up. That’ll cure our nations ills! Reminds me, you never did get around to suggesting a solution to our medicare problems. Increasing the cost is not exactly the direction we need to go in. Perhaps you can agree?
Bigd: You really want to make the claim that Democrats hold cheating spouses accountable?>>
DAR
Just did. And I gave specific, referenced, examples (and they forgot Sanford). And your rebuttal is?
Bigd: Perhaps the Clinton thing escaped you.>>
DAR
But he didn’t have “sexual relations.”
Bigd: Democrats are not forgiving Edwards because he cheated on his dying wife, and he continually lied about it.>>
DAR
Yeah, your guys typically don’t lie about it when they cheat!
Bigd: Remember, they are the ones who said that what goes on in private is no one’s business>>
DAR
All well and good, until you try to pretend you are the party of “family values.”
D.
———–
“Gingrich, pressured her [his wife] for a divorce in 1981, while she was recovering from cancer surgery.
…six months after his divorce was final, Gingrich wed Marianne Ginther.[57] He remained married to Ginther until 2000, when they divorced. Shortly thereafter, Gingrich then married Callista Bisek, with whom he was conducting an extra-marital affair during the Congressional investigation of Bill Clinton’s perjury relating to his affair…” —wiki
Ah, pungent hypocrisy that.
Darrel, you took it out of context again. When I wrote people are being denied care it was specifically about what is happening in Massachusetts and you cut it to make it look different. I used to think you were careless but now I know you are dishonest.
He had sexual relations. But if you think what he did was not then perhaps you should think twice before you kiss your wife…
There are people from both parties who do repugnant things. Quit trying to present this false image of Democrats because it is a joke. Values, HAHAHAHAHA
And how was Gingrich a hypocrite? The impeachment issue was about the perjury, not the sex.
Bigd: “When I wrote people are being denied care it was specifically about what is happening in Massachusetts”>>
DAR
I know. I thought that was obvious by the context. My response was written understanding you were referring to Massachusetts. But you didn’t back it up anyway. Even if you weren’t referring to just Massachusetts, I would respond exactly the same either way so it changes nothing. Good duck!
Bigd: “And how was Gingrich a hypocrite?”>>
DAR
That’s a good one!
D.
Who knows, maybe that Space Shuttle arm was built by non union labor and was awarded to the lowest bidder.
When you guys build the shuttle itself, give me a call.
Darrel, how many of the million going to Mexico are not US citizens?
I would think the number of US citizens going to Canada for care would be barely perceptible as well.
Funny though, you come up with a different number than Victoria. What makes your source any better?
As for those in America, everyone can get care that is needed, they just have to pay for it.
Health care is a good so why shouldn’t people pay for it? If you have to take out a loan then you have to take out a loan. No one cries about getting a loan for a new car or a big screen TV.
The number of uninsured is small and the number of affected people is small.
As for any emergency, people are treated no matter what and many just don’t pay the bill.
That is a matter if irresponsibility, and not the fault of the system. If you want a good you have to pay for it.
Bigd: “how many of the million going to Mexico are not US citizens?>>
DAR
How is that relevant? It isn’t. Human beings, leaving the US, to get medical care.
Bigd: different number than Victoria. What makes your source any better?>>
DAR
Mine is referenced and easily verified. And it references a scientific poll of seventeen thousand people. I have another one with more. These are robust polls and they show the number coming to the US is a pitance. It’s a canard.
Bigd: in America, everyone can get care that is needed, they just have to pay for it.>>
DAR
And if they can’t, sometimes, too often, they just go and die. Good system! And this is tolerated in the wealthiest country in the world? What are you people insane? Yes, I think so. You’re ideology has twisted your limited and rudimentary sense of morality and fairness and led you to insane, inhuman, positions.
Bigd: Health care is a good so why shouldn’t people pay for it?>>
DAR
Roads are a good, fire protection is a good, police protection is a good, sanitation is a good, etc. People pay for these things, collectively. Almost everything you touch and buy is subsidized. When my friend goes in for a minor surgery, stays three days and gets a $87,000 bill, when we pay 18x as much as France for a routine procedure, some thing is busted. Costs are such that people cannot afford to use the system, hence, millions left in the lurch and gumming up the system (with their unpaid bills and dead bodies).
Bigd: The number of uninsured is small and the number of affected people is small.>>
DAR
Saying something over and over doesn’t make it true. The US system is a disaster and needs IC, stat.
Bigd: “…emergency, people are treated no matter what and many just don’t pay the bill.”>>
DAR
Good system! And how’s that working out for us? Oh, I see, hence my friends $87k bill and my insurance rates.
Bigd: If you want a good you have to pay for it.>>
DAR
People can’t pay for it and it’s something that’s not optional. They need it for life. Time for that bit in the Constitution about having the government “promote the general Welfare” kick in.
D.
————
“A General Welfare clause… provides that the governing body empowered by the document may enact laws as it sees fit to promote the well-being of the people governed thereunder.” –wiki
It is relevant. If they are not here legally they are not entitled to health care here and should be going someplace else.
The number of people who die because of lack of insurance is small. We can say that no one should die but that will not happen. It is like saying no one should die because we have seatbelts in cars. Sometimes people die even with their seatbelts on and some live even if they don’t wear them.
As for the general welfare clause, I will take go with Madison on this one and you can stick with the “legal scholars” at Wiki:
“With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.”
A HOST OF PROOFS. Lots of evidence that this was not what you pretend it to be.
Yes, we pay taxes for roads and we all use them. We all pay the same amount of gasoline tax and we all pay the same amount of tolls on toll roads because we all derive the same benefit from the roads. They do not charge the guy with the Hummer more gas tax or a higher toll than the guy with a VW. They do not make a rich guy pay more gas tax or tolls than a poor guy. We all pay the same.
In no way shape or form would we say it is OK for the poor to pay no gas tax or tolls and the rest of us pay more so they can use the road.
The things like fire and police are essential government services (though many would take a different stance and many fire companies are volunteer). Health care is not an essential government service. It is not a government service at all. It is a good that people should pay for.
Allow competition across state lines and get government out of the business and costs will come down and people can afford it.
There is no reason for us to pay for someone else’s education or health care.
It is a good, not a right. People lived a long time by providing for themselves. How did anyone ever make it 200 years ago?
Bigd: “If they are not here legally they are not entitled to health care here and should be going someplace else.>>
DAR
You are equivocating. Whether they are citizens (or whether Danny Williams is a citizen) is irrelevant to the fact that millions leave the US for health care.
Bigd: The number of people who die because of lack of insurance is small.>>
DAR
18,000 unnecessary deaths is not in any sense small. If you line up the dead bodies, the extend for about 18 miles. Every year. So says the National Academy of Science.
Bigd: As for the general welfare clause, I will take go with Madison…”>>
DAR
I agree with Madison. They shouldn’t be taken in a “literal and unlimited sense.”
Bigd: “They do not charge the guy with the Hummer more gas tax…”
DAR
Well he kind of signed up for paying more in gasoline tax when he made his stupid decision didn’t he? He pays at least 4x more per mile in gas tax than I do. Now if he can just get parts from that Chinese company.
Bigd: We all pay the same.>>
DAR
Bingo. Hence the wonderful collectivism of it all. Just like in single payer, we all pay (the poor do get discounts).
Bigd: In no way shape or form would we say it is OK for the poor to pay no gas tax…”>>
DAR
Right. And when we find out how to fund our health care costs in a sensible way, we can do it where everyone pays. Right now when the ER gets stiffed, who pays? Not the person who got the service. I think that should be fixed.
Bigd: The things like fire and police are essential government services>>
DAR
No, they are essential services (fire is often optional, not essential). We *choose* to make them a “government” socialized service because of the extreme efficiencies (and other benefits) this provides.
Bigd: Health care is not an essential government service.>>
DAR
Again you carefully sneak the word government in there. Health care is certainly an essential service, often necessary for life. If a country decides it is an essential service, it is, and it can arrange to provide and fund it accordingly. All of our peer countries do this. We do it very well in the VA. We will will fix the rest of it too someday.
Bigd: Allow competition across state lines>>
DAR
A favorite talking point. As if any insurance company worth it’s salt can’t arrange to set itself up within the guidelines and structure of each state. What a recipe for disaster.
A roast:
“Competition across state lines sounds great in theory. The problem is it becomes “a rush to the bottom.” Insurance Companies will move to states with the least regulations. You buy insurance thinking you’re covered, as your state requires, but it’s not required in the state where the insurance company is located. Patients get less coverage, outrageous “out of pocket” expenses, but pay the same premiums; this increases the profits for insurance companies.” Link.
So after people get sick, THEN they learn their bargain coverage is complete crapola, or phoney. Then they get to try and sue a huge well funded company out of state. We have enough of this already.
Bigd: and get government out of the business and costs will come down and people can afford it.>>
DAR
You’ve been saying that for decades and it’s only gotten worse.
Bigd: There is no reason for us to pay for someone else’s education or health care.>>
DAR
So you want to destroy our education system too. Of course.
Bigd: How did anyone ever make it 200 years ago?>>
DAR
They died young. Oh how you conservatives love the past! But we really don’t want to go back and “conserve” the past. We want to “progress.”
D.
Speaking of dumb dumbs this guy from Canada describes them quite well and it does look like the Democrats are starting to run:
Barack Hussein Obama: I Told You So – Yes I Did
By Howard Galganov
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
23 July 2009
When Obama won the Presidency with the help of the LEFTIST Media, Hollywood And Entertainment Liberals, Ethnic Socialists (ACORN), Stupid Non-Business Professionals and Bush Haters, I wrote: It won’t take six months until the People figure this guy out and realize how horrible a mistake they’ve made. And when they come to that realization, the damage to the United States of America will be so great it will take a generation or more to repair – IF EVER.
The IDIOTS who not only voted for the Messiah, but also worked [hard] to promote his Lordship, are now left holding the bag.
Here are two things they will NEVER do: They will NEVER admit to making a Blunder out of all proportion by electing a snake-oil salesman with no Positive social history or management experience of any kind. They will NEVER take responsibility for the curse they’ve imposed upon the immediate and long-term future of their country.
In essence, the people responsible for putting this horror show in power are themselves responsible for every cataclysmic decision he makes and the Consequences thereof.
In just six months, the Messiah’s polls are showing the following: On Healthcare Reform – He’s going under for the third time with polling well Under 50 percent, even within his own Party. Even though he might be able to Muscle a Healthcare Reform Bill by using Chicago BULLY tactics against his Fellow Democrats, it will just make things worse. On Cap and Trade (Cap and Tax) – The Fat-Lady is already singing. On the Stimulus Package (Tax and Spend) – His popularity is in FREE-FALL. On the TARP package he took and ran With from President Bush – It’s all but Good-Night Irene. On the closing of GITMO and “HIS” war on what he no longer wants called the War On Terrorism – He’s standing in quicksand with his head just about to go under. On a Comparison between himself and George W Bush at the same six months into Their respective first term Presidencies – Bush is ahead of him in the Polls On a comparison between He Who Walks On Water and the 12 preceding Presidents between WW II and now – Obama ranks 10th. On a Poll just Conducted, that asks who would you vote for today between Obama and Mitt Romney – It’s a dead heat. Between Obama and Palin – Obama’s ONLY ahead by 8 Points and she hasn’t even begun to campaign. It seems to me that Obama Wants to be everywhere where he shouldn’t be.
He’s personally invested in ‘totally insulting’ America’s ONLY REAL Middle Eastern ally (Israel) in favor of Palestinian Despots and Murderers. He’s traveling the world apologizing for the USA while lecturing others on how to do it right, when in fact and truth he has no experience at doing anything other than getting elected.
He went to the Moslem world in Egypt to declare that America IS NOT A CHRISTIAN NATION while he heaped praises on Islam, where he compared the “plight” of the Palestinians to the Holocaust.
The Russians think he’s a putz, The French think he’s rude.
The Germans want him to stop spending.
The Indians want him to keep his nose out of their environmental business
The North Koreans think he’s a joke, The Iranians won’t acknowledge his calls.
And the British can’t even come up with a comprehensive opinion of him.
As for the Chinese, he’s too frightened to even glance their way. [After All, China now owns a large portion of the United States.]
Maybe if America’s first Emperor would stay home more, travel less, and work a little bit instead of being on television just about every day or stop running to “papered” Town Hall Meetings, perhaps he would have a little bit of time to do the work of the nation.
In all fairness, it wasn’t HARD to be RIGHT in my prediction concerning Obama’s presidency, even in its first six months, so I’m going to make yet another prediction:
OBAMA WILL PROBABLY NOT FINISH HIS 4-YEAR TERM, at least not in a Conventional way.
He is such a political HORROR SHOW, and so detrimental to the USA and his Own Democratic Party, that the Democrats themselves will either FORCE him to Resign or figure out a way to have him thrown out.
Who knows, maybe he really isn’t a BORN US Citizen and that’s a way the Democrats will be able to get rid of him. [He is a citizen, but not a naturalized citizen with both mother and father being US citizens.]
Or – MORE LIKELY THAN NOT, the Democrats will make Obama THEIR OWN LAME DUCK PRESIDENT.
I don’t believe the Democrats have nearly as much love for their country as they do for their own political fortunes. And with Obama, their fortunes are rapidly becoming toast.
Poor Victoria. She probably even believes some of that. Nonsense in, nonsense out.
D.
———-
ABC News/Washington Post Poll. Jan. 12-15, 2010. RV = registered voters
“Do you have a favorable or unfavorable impression of Barack Obama?”
favorable: 58%
Link
Now, if you want to look at what the world thinks of him, and compare this to Bush. Oh, that would be a mistake to go there:
“Graphs comparing the approval ratings of presidents George W. Bush in 2008 and Barack Obama in 2009 evoke the trajectory of a pogo stick:
12 percent for Bush in Germany.
92 percent for Obama.
11 percent for Bush in France.
88 percent for Obama.
Overall, the positive reaction to the U.S. president has quadrupled from when the White House changed hands to when the survey was conducted in June.”
LINK.
So your crazy French man rant is a bit of an anomaly.
Oh, and this is rich. Canadians love them some Obama too:
Canadians prefer Obama over own leaders: poll
“A new poll suggests Canadians would prefer to vote for Barack Obama rather than cast a ballot for their own political leaders, while 45 per cent of Americans envy Canada’s health care system.”
Nice.
Poor Darrel, he has never met a fact he couldn’t intentionally misrepresent-
As for who loves Owe-bama, there is no accounting for taste, and fools and idiots are born every minute.
I saw where progressives are pushing for American History to be taught beginning with the presidency of Rutherford B. Hayes- just so they can leave out that pesky
Constitution thingie, huh?
There should be open season on progressives- I’d show them some Eugenics.
Only trouble, they breed like rats.
The irony is Blake comes on here and calls us liars using his usual pack of lies and then runs away again. But not before he reminds us of his fetish for murder and torture though, of course…
BLK: “Darrel, he has never met a fact he couldn’t intentionally misrepresent-“>>
DAR
Blake is careful to not provide a single example. When you make claims, it’s best to back them up.
D.