Obama: Ask Doctors For Health Care Reform Prescription
by Big Dog on Sep 17, 2009 at 18:54 Political
Barack Obama was at the University of Maryland today giving a campaign speech about his health care takeover plan. During the speech someone yelled “You Lie.” That person was removed by the police once again showing that America’s institutions of higher learning are only tolerant of all opinions if the people expressing them agree with the liberal philosophies of the school or are yelling at conservatives.
Obama was hawking the plan and his plan was to tell everyone that the people who oppose his plan are liars (ironic, isn’t it?) and that they should listen to the people who know more about it than any others:
See, I just want to point out, I think it’s telling, some of the people who are most enthusiastic about health care reform are the very medical professionals who have firsthand knowledge about how badly the system needs to change. (Applause.) So don’t — stop paying attention to the folks who are spreading false charges, crazy rumors about our plan. Pay attention to the health care experts — the doctors and the nurses who know our system best. (Applause.) WBAL Radio [emphasis mine]
So Barack Obama wants us to know that people who oppose his takeover plan are liars (from the speech; “Too many engage in scare tactics instead of honest debates.”) and using fear to keep the people from getting the health care insurance they deserve. He also wants us to know that we should listen to those who know the system best.
To me, this means that I should not be listening to Obama and the people in his party who are telling me to buy into this plan because it is the best thing since sliced bread. I should not be listening to the media wing of the Democratic party when it shills for Obama and tells me to accept this. I should not listen to those who say to ram it down my throat and make me accept it because I am too stupid to know what is best for me. I need to listen to the doctors and nurses who know the system best.
According to Obama doctors and nurses know this better than he does and they know it better than anyone else (if they know it best they must know it better than anyone else). Fair enough. I am a Registered Nurse and I do not like the plan. My wife is a Registered Nurse and she is not in favor of it. I have yet to meet any nurse or doctor who is in favor of it.
Admittedly, my sphere is small compared to the entire country. So let’s take a look at the bigger picture:
Two of every three practicing physicians oppose the medical overhaul plan under consideration in Washington, and hundreds of thousands would think about shutting down their practices or retiring early if it were adopted, a new IBD/TIPP Poll has found.
~snip~
Major findings included:
• Two-thirds, or 65%, of doctors say they oppose the proposed government expansion plan. This contradicts the administration’s claims that doctors are part of an “unprecedented coalition” supporting a medical overhaul.
It also differs with findings of a poll released Monday by National Public Radio that suggests a “majority of physicians want public and private insurance options,” and clashes with media reports such as Tuesday’s front-page story in the Los Angeles Times with the headline “Doctors Go For Obama’s Reform.”
Nowhere in the Times story does it say doctors as a whole back the overhaul. It says only that the AMA — the “association representing the nation’s physicians” and what “many still regard as the country’s premier lobbying force” — is “lobbying and advertising to win public support for President Obama’s sweeping plan.”
The AMA, in fact, represents approximately 18% of physicians and has been hit with a number of defections by members opposed to the AMA’s support of Democrats’ proposed health care overhaul.
• Four of nine doctors, or 45%, said they “would consider leaving their practice or taking an early retirement” if Congress passes the plan the Democratic majority and White House have in mind.
More than 800,000 doctors were practicing in 2006, the government says. Projecting the poll’s finding onto that population, 360,000 doctors would consider quitting. Investor’s Business Daily
So it appears that Obama is lying when he says that he has the backing of the doctors. He has an endorsement from the AMA which, as this story points out, accounts for 18% of physicians and has lost membership since the endorsement. The AMA is a lobbying organization.
Obama said to listen to the doctors and nurses. Well in this case the doctors have spoken out and two-thirds of them do not approve. Additionally, 45% of them would consider leaving practice or retiring early if this thing passes.
Ladies and gentlemen, Barack Obama told us that we should listen to the people who know the health system best which means better than he or his followers. Those people, he told us, are the doctors and nurses.
The doctors are pretty clear on this issue. They do not want it and many would quit being a doctor if it passes.
The issue is clearer than ever for those of you who did not know what to do on this. All you have to do is follow the advice of Obama and listen to the doctors.
The doctors do not want this thing so we owe it to Obama (and to the doctors) to make sure they do not get it.
Others:
Gateway Pundit
Michelle Malkin
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Tags: doctors, health care reform, lies, Obama, takeover
a) It’s not possible for them to know what is in the bill since it isn’t finish and is changing daily.
b) To the degree they (doctor’s/nurses) don’t like it, this can be largely attributed to the fact that it still feeds the greed and waste machine and doesn’t go far enough in the direction that will eventually work (i.e. public option).
Observe:
“A RWJF survey summarized in the September 14, 2009 edition of the New England Journal of Medicine shows that 62.9 percent of physicians nationwide support proposals to expand health care coverage that include both public and private insurance options—where people under the age of 65 would have the choice of enrolling in a new public health insurance plan (like Medicare) or in private plans. The survey shows that just 27.3 percent of physicians support a new program that does not include a public option and instead provides subsidies for low-income people to purchase private insurance. Only 9.6 percent of doctors nationwide support a system where a Medicare-like public program is created in lieu of any private insurance. A majority of physicians (58%) also support expanding Medicare eligibility to those between the ages of 55 and 64.
In every region of the country, a majority of physicians supported a combination of public and private options, as did physicians who identified themselves as primary care providers, surgeons, or other medical subspecialists. Among those who identified themselves as members of the American Medical Association, 62.2 percent favored both the public and private options.”
LINK.
D.
The AMA is irrelevant as they only comprise 18% of the doctors. The survey was a sampling of all practicing medicine.
You discount the poll as greed and yet you and Sav hold true to the idea that since climate scientists surveyed believe in global warming they must be right and greed (as in funding dollars) cannot play into this.
How can greed account for nurses? They are not money producers for institutions. They are overhead because their time is not billed for like a doctor’s is. They do not get the big paychecks that you imagine are commonplace.
The survey is clear, two-thirds oppose.
If there is no bill (there are plenty of versions) then how can anyone tell us we should like it?
I didn’t mention the AMA.
Just because climate scientists are experts in climatology, it doesn’t mean that they are necessarily knowledgeable about the politics and the cure for America’s mess which is a political problem, not a health problem.
Likewise, doctors are experts in health, not necessarily the politics.
My reference to “greed” refers to the system, not to individuals like doctors and nurses (which, as my survey shows, a majority favor the inclusion of a public option).
No other peer country in the world allows insurance companies to make a profit off of denying necessary basic care to citizens. It’s immoral and it will be stopped.
D.
—————–
“The Baucus bill is the worst piece of healthcare legislation I’ve seen in 30 years,” Dean said last night at a healthcare town hall and book signing in Washington. “In fact, it’s a $60 billion giveaway to the health insurance industry every year,” he said. “It was written by healthcare lobbyists, so that’s not a surprise. It’s an outrage.”
–Howard Dean, physician, politician
You did mention the AMA in your quote:
Among those who identified themselves as members of the American Medical Association, 62.2 percent favored both the public and private options.”
The 62.2% is irrelevant because it is of a small number.
You indicate that the system is filled with greed and makes profit off denying necessary care. This is not true. Insurance companies pay what they are obligated to pay and if there are problems it is usually the result of a person who neglects to mention preexisting things (which some companies cover after a certain period of time).
You think it is wrong for companies to make a profit, I think it is wrong for people who to have to pay for someone else’s insurance. I think it is wrong that the government reimburses for Medicare at rates lower than the normal rate.
If people could get the same tax benefit for buying insurance that companies get and they could shop for plans across the country then they could get the best plan for their needs. Government rules prevent that from happening.
I should not have to pay for my insurance and someone else’s.
There are also physicians on the other side of the aisle who disagree with the whole idea of government involvement. Ron Paul has been a doctor a lot longer than Howie yeeeehaaaaaaa Dean.
Paul was a doctor almost 20 years when Dean graduated from medical school.
Bigd: “The 62.2% is irrelevant because it is of a small number.”>>
DAR
Did you miss the part that refers to all physicians and not just the AMA?
“62.9 percent of physicians nationwide support proposals to expand health care coverage that include both public and private insurance options”
The difference between 62.2% and 62.9%, is obviously, tiny.
Bigd: “You indicate that the system is filled with greed and makes profit off denying necessary care. This is not true.”>>
DAR
a) The system is owned by wall street which demands more and more profit be squeezed out, based upon greed.
b) The more they deny care, the more money they make. A perverse and immoral incentive.
I don’t think it is wrong for companies to make a profit, mine does.
If you want medicare to be reimbursed at the “normal rate” then you are very much for vastly increasing government spending (so doc’s can make *more* money). So we need more taxes for that or we can borrow it from China. Which method do you prefer?
Bigd: “If people could get the same tax benefit…”>>
DAR
Tax cuts are not going to solve our health care systems problems. Good one!
Ron Paul was right about the war, but otherwise, he is a libertarian and a loon. But I repeat myself. His policies on health care and pretty much everything else are completely untenable for America and aren’t taken seriously outside of a small circle of zealots. And that’s putting sugar on it.
D.
Gee Darrel- I just read a study that says if Nobummacare gets in, 45% of doctors will quit- you think that might put a crimp in the ratio of docs vs. patients. especially if 10- 30 million new people, plus the illegals who would still keep coming
This just in, your poll is *complete rubbish.*
Observe the dismantling at 538 (a site I found about a year ago and which provides extensive, professional, objective scientific analysis of polling]:
IBD/TIPP Doctors Poll Is Not Trustworthy.
Your poll is from the same guys that had “John McCain winning the youth vote 74-22…”
No, really.
Obama won it by about 66 – 32% Link.
[Ouch]
D.
I didn’t even have to identify the poll for you to “roast” it- what a canard.
You purport to have all the answers, but in truth you are just Nobama’s shill- you and Sav, and a couple of others like Randy. Are you paid? How much are you paid to whore for Nobama?
My orthopedic doctor has already told me he will quit if this bill goes through. The doctors who work with him are also against it. I see quite a few doctors and haven’t come across any that are for it. As far as Obama goes, he lies everytime he opens his mouth. He can’t tell us a thing about what’s in the bill because he didn’t write it nor read it. I have never heard a President speak so nasty against the American people who don’t agree with him. I guess he thinks he is scaring us, but I will not give in to him. Also, on fining those who refuse to get healthcare, if people are out of work and don’t have any money, how does he think they will be able to pay a fine. This man is not well.
BRB: “My orthopedic doctor has already told me he will quit if this bill goes through.>>
DAR
Good. He’ll be replaced by someone who cares about helping people while still having the opportunity to make a very good living (as happens in all the other rich countries).
BRB: “if people are out of work and don’t have any money, how does he think they will be able to pay a fine.>>
DAR
A fair question. The answer:
“The Baucus plan, like the other bills, offers subsidies to help low- and middle-income people buy insurance….”
“Mr. Baucus would extend benefits to millions of the uninsured by expanding Medicaid, at a federal cost of $287 billion over 10 years, and by offering subsidies to individuals and families, at a cost of $463 billion over 10 years.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/17/health/policy/17health.html
Why don’t you try asking intelligent questions more often instead of the focus on stuff like:
“This man is not well.”
D.
If there is no financial incentive to go through the necessary schooling to be a competent physician, why would anyone do this? Just because they are tired of looking after goats?
Greed does have a place in our society- it drives ambition- and that, in turn fuels discoveries.
We need greed- otherwise, we will be treating today’s diseases with yesterday’s medicines.
Your Resident is stupid AND a liar.
BLK: “financial incentive to go through the necessary schooling to be a competent physician”>>
DAR
Apparently the 36 countries that have better, fairer, cheaper, healthcare systems provide enough of this “financial incentive.” (And they often pay for most of the schooling).
In fact, in general they usually have more than we do. In the category of doctors per capita, we come in #52.
Nice try though.
D.
Actually, I believe my post above trumps yours- since we do not have, nor do we want, a socialized system of anything, unlike those countries you cite.
Their system is not good for us, and they are too lazy to have our system.
BLAKE: I believe my post above trumps yours->>
DAR
Well, an important part of becoming an adult is realizing that believing something does not make it so. If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.
BLK: “we do not have, nor do we want, a socialized system of anything,…”>>
DAR
Time for a little rant about something I have put off for far too long. Have a seat little grasshopper.
[Dar cracks knuckles]
Rather than “not having… a socialized system of anything,” you swim in a sea of socialism. You are a product of it. You probably fancy yourself a rugged individualist but this is a packaged fantasy someone sold you and you bought it hook line and sinker.
Every piece of glass and rubber down to the fibers in the cloth in every new vehicle requires a government seal of approval. Every aspect of every new vehicle has to follow a litany of government mandates and goes through a battery of government required tests. Brakes, restraints, lights, flammability, crumple zones, air bags, paint, emissions, stability, all regulated and strictly enforced.
Every new window put in a home, every treated board used, every shingle, every water pipe, every light switch, every drop of paint, all made to government enforced, socialized, standards of safety and efficiency.
Every power tool, every appliance, every toy, every battery, every electric cable, every couch, every off road three wheeler (oops, BANNED, can’t have those), every off road four wheeler, all made to government enforced, socialized, standards of safety and efficiency.
Firehouses = socialized
Police = socialized
Laws (obviously) = socialized
Courts = socialized
Military = socialized (with private contractors)
Education = almost all socialized and regulated
Health care = at least half socialized and heavily regulated
Pharma = heavily regulated and socialized
Employer and work related rules = heavily regulated/socialized
Banking, commerce, investment, insurance, aviation, fuel manufacture and transport, imports/exports, cable, ALL utilities, wireless, radio bandwidth, TV, broadcast, explosives, agriculture, internet, cross border travel, disease control, child care, all controlled, licensed and enforced by local, state and federal government mandates (socialized).
Almost all municipal aspects, garbage pick-up/disposal and containment, all public water, toxic chemical manufacture and use, factory smoke stacks, building construction, all done to government enforced, that is socialized, mandated standards of safety and efficiency.
Let’s start at the beginning. Every baby crib, every disposable diaper, every jar of baby food, every box of cereal, every medicinal treatment, every teddy bear, every pair of pajamas, all made to government mandated, government enforced (socialized), standards of safety.
Every new car, every new house, nearly every item of food purchased at the grocery, every glue product, every motor oil, every cosmetic product (and service) all controlled by government (socialized) standards.
Every medical treatment (with claims of efficacy), every medical device, every pill, every drug, tested, labeled and approved to follow government mandated (socialized) standards of safety and quality.
When you get old, if you move into an assisted care facility, the living conditions and terms will be heavily regulated by our socialized system. When you die (not if), the treatment of your body, how your possessions are dealt with (if intestate, no will), the duration before burial, the place of burial, the manufacture of your casket (or the process of cremation) are all controlled by licenses and government mandated, government enforced (socialized), standards of safety.
That’s not all of it, but it’s a good start.
So, dear Blake, next time you feel like saying:
“we do not have, nor do we want, a socialized system of anything…”
Please consider the reality of my comments above. You are the product of, and swim in a system, that, while driven and fueled by a thriving private sector, is heavily socialized from top to bottom.
D.
So some guy writes that the poll is bad and he is the authority?
Come now, how many polls have you supported that were blatantly biased? I think that the poll is as good as any right now and until some credible source debunks it then I will go with it.
Show me where Nate has debunked any poll that is in favor of any liberal project?
When did the poll showing McCain ahead take place? Was he in fact ahead before he selected Palin or before the collapse? I know a number of people who are young who were going to vote for him until he selected Palin.
Specifics please…
Yes, Nate’s an authority and his five point response to your poll rips it to shreds.
Bigd: how many polls have you supported that were blatantly biased?>>
DAR
I don’t support polls that are blatantly biased.
Bigd: Show me where Nate has debunked any poll that is in favor of any liberal project?>>
DAR
He’s done it lots of times. Do it yourself.
Bigd: When did the poll showing McCain ahead take place?>>
DAR
Oct 18, 2008. Nate rips this apart here.
If you read this, and understand it, you will never cite these guys again. It’s an astonishing and careful roast.
Bigd: Was he in fact ahead before he selected Palin or before the collapse?>>
DAR
McCain was *never* ahead in the youth vote. And he got creamed 2 to 1.
Bigd: I know a number of people who are young who were going to vote for him…>>
DAR
[Rolls eyes]
D.
So Dean says the Baucus plan is bad but you tout ho0w good it is. All I see is the plan will take money from the producers and give it to the non producers.
When did I tout how good the Baucus plan is? I never have. It was released yesterday. Stop making things up.
You pointed out that Dean opposed it and then you wrote this:
“The Baucus plan, like the other bills, offers subsidies to help low- and middle-income people buy insurance….”
“Mr. Baucus would extend benefits to millions of the uninsured by expanding Medicaid, at a federal cost of $287 billion over 10 years, and by offering subsidies to individuals and families, at a cost of $463 billion over 10 years.”
Seems to me you were using this part of the plan to answer Barbara’s question and gave the impression that this was a good solution.
That means you were touting it as good (at least a part of it).
So how did I make that up?
Nope. Barbara asked a fair question (which I didn’t know the answer to) and I searched around and provided a verbatim answer from the NYT’s. That’s it.
62% of all physicians (and I doubt that) is vastly greater than 62% who are members of the AMA since it only has 18% of all physicians.
Medicare should be privatized and not government run. It would run more efficiently. If people are allowed to write off their insurance costs then they will be able to afford it and the expenditures will improve the economy.
Tax cuts means more revenue to the treasury. But this is just leveling the playing field, something you libs say you want.
Ron Paul is a kook but Howard Dean is not? Get real. Paul has very good ideas about health care. If Dean’s credentials as an MD give him credibility then Paul’s do as well. Just because you do not like him does not mean he is wrong.
Bigd: “62% of all physicians (and I doubt that) is vastly greater than 62% who are members of the AMA since it only has 18% of all physicians.>>
DAR
Doesn’t matter. “Percentage” accounts for that. The sampling of the AMA members and the sampling of all physicians differs by an extremely statistically insignificant .7 percent. So it makes no sense to refer to them separately with regard to this issue.
Bigd: “Medicare should be privatized and not government run.”>>
DAR
Two problems.
a) Private companies don’t want the old and chronically sick (they don’t even want the young and sick) and the costs would go through the roof.
b) the costs would go THROUGH the roof, IF they wanted them, and they don’t (and the costs would go through the roof!).
Example: If the VA was turned over to the private sector, what would happen? The costs would go through the roof. That’s why it’s not done, and everyone knows that’s why it is not done (who is not a loon). The VA controls costs, as does medicare (largely by shafting doctors).
All socialized systems control costs far better than the patchwork mess we have in the private sector which is filled with bloat and perverse incentives (and greed for the profit) which wastes unbelievable amounts of money.
Bigd: “Ron Paul is a kook but Howard Dean is not?>>
DAR
Correct. Dean is mainstream and nearly made top of the ticket. Ron Paul will never go anywhere other than the slot he has and a little fringe appeal on the side. Like Nader. Interesting characters but they are never going anywhere politically.
D.
Roll your eyes if you wish but I have had people say this.
Your assurance that Nate is an expert is not enough. I don’t see him on TV discussing the polls.
Your poll is a very scientific poll that had a 43% response and did not discuss many other items. There is no indication as to whether the intense media coverage influenced them or not.
I know hundreds of physicians. According to this poll 62 out of every 100 should be in favor. I can find none.
All of them say that the system needs to be fixed but none have anything good to say about public options given their experience with Medicare.
The AMA was very opposed to the whole thing. What drug deal did Obama make with them to get them on board? Did he cut a deal like he did with Big Pharma?
Bigd: Your assurance that Nate is an expert is not enough.>>
DAR
Try responding to his arguments rather than attacking his credibility. His arguments are self explanatory and render your poll worthless, and it’s not even close.
Bigd: I don’t see him on TV discussing the polls.>>
DAR
I’ve seen him on the tube and heard him on the radio, but this is hardly a valuable threshold for competence. In America, if you are really foolish, they give you your own show.
Bigd: Your poll is a very scientific poll that had a 43% response>>
DAR
What do you mean “a 43% response?”
Bigd: I know hundreds of physicians.>>
DAR
And you have polled exactly how many of them? Good grief.
Bigd: “[Doc’s bad experience with] public options given their experience with Medicare.>>
DAR
Maybe the fact that they make a *lot* less money is a factor. Ah, but one company to deal with and all basic care is covered.
Bigd: Did he [Obama] cut a deal like he did with Big Pharma?>>
DAR
You’re confusing him with Bush. Americans now subsidize low prices paid by people in other countries for the very same drugs, made by the same company in the same factory.
D.
—————–
“…Well, for every two doctors in the U.S., there is now one health-insurance employee—more than 470,000 in total. In 2006, it cost almost $500 per person just to administer health insurance.”
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care/2
Nobama cut a deal with Pharma- that is why they are onboard, in return for no cheapo Canuk meds, and a 12 year exclusivity on patents
Fair enough. We will leave it at that then.
The VA and Medicare to not control costs. Those costs are not reported because they are borne by another part of the budget.
The VA is billing the private insurance of veterans even for service connected conditions. Private insurance is footing the bill so the VA can falsely claim it has reduced costs.
Medicare is broke. It pays out more than it takes in. It has higher admin costs than private insurance (which your poll points out) and it hides those costs in other agency budget items. It is all inefficient but it will not go out of business like a private company because government can just raise taxes.
The little class will end up with a hefty tax increase. If this is all so good why does it kick in after the 2012 elections?
Bigd: “The VA and Medicare to not control costs.”>>
DAR
Of course they do. You can’t be this dumb. The cost of fee’s are set, controlled, by the government. Completely. This is pure socialized medicine and it is vastly more efficient/cheaper because of this.
No sane person questions this and you cannot provide a mainstream source that supports your unbelievable position. They all agree with me. I can bury you in references.
Bigd: The VA is billing the private insurance of veterans>>
DAR
Show this is significant.
Bigd: the VA can falsely claim it has reduced costs.>>
DAR
The VA costs are a fraction of private care costs. This is because, like with the systems in the rest of the world, costs are controlled. Fee’s are set and they are much less than the bloated for profit private system in the US (where often you can’t even get a quote for the cost for a procedure in advance).
Example: A overnight hospital stay in Japan, with food, is $11 (That’s the fee, as set by the government).
Hospitals and doc’s have all of their fee’s set by the government and they are astonishingly low. And hospitals and Doc’s in Japan are *private* and they compete FIERCELY for the business even at these low prices (signs plastered all over buses etc.).
Japan spends about 8% of GDP on health. We spend about 18%.
If privatizing the VA would cost less, show me a republican politician who has put forward a bill to privatize the VA in order to REDUCE costs. It would be laughed out of the room because of the absurdity. The assertion is ridiculous. You actually believe this? You’re a nurse?!
Bigd: Medicare is broke.>>
DAR
You’re wrong. “The Medicare hospital insurance trust fund will become insolvent by 2019.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_%28United_States%29 (5 references given)
The government is broke. And you want to borrow more money from China to put missiles in Europe and protect the French. I suppose our credit isn’t all used up yet (we spend as much as the rest of the world combined on the military). Medicare is a bill the government pays. “In 1966, Medicare and Medicaid made up 1 percent of total government spending; now that figure is 20 percent, and quickly rising.” (Atlantic, ibid).
And you want to fix this by bringing in another partner who would extract profit out of this? Wall street?
You have a lot of blind faith in your free market religion. Other countries have tried this. It doesn’t work.
“The inevitable tendency in capitalism is the accumulation of wealth. According to its own laws, capital always moves to where it can generate the greatest profit, never the greatest good. Why does everyone know the saying, “The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer?” Because it’s true.”
– Richard Curtis
Bigd: [Medicare] has higher admin costs than private insurance (which your poll points out)>>
DAR
What? Absurd. Show this. No one who knows this issue (including some really crazy right wingers) believes medicare has higher admin costs. You need to stop reading libertarian crap.
Again:
“New England Journal of Medicine finds that health care bureaucracy cost Americans $294.3 billion in 1999. The $1,059 per capita spent on health care administration was more than three times the $307 per capita in paperwork costs under Canada’s national health insurance system. Cutting U.S. health bureaucracy costs to the Canadian level would have saved $209 billion in 1999.
The study was carried out by researchers at Harvard Medical School and the Canadian Institute for Health Information,…
The authors found that bureaucracy accounted for at least 31% of total U.S. health spending in 1999 vs. 16.7% in Canada.”
“Hundreds of billions are squandered each year on healthcare bureaucracy, more than enough to cover all of the uninsured, pay for full drug coverage for seniors, and upgrade coverage for the tens of millions who are underinsured,”
http://www.abilitymagazine.com/news_CanadianHealthCare.html
I could give you hundreds of standard mainstream references showing the same thing. The idea that the private system has lower admin. costs is beyond wrong. Anyone who believes this is misinformed, a loon, or both. Sorry about that.
Bigd: why does it kick in after the 2012 elections?>>
DAR
Government moves slow. I am sure parts of it would kick in much faster than that.
D.
Read your poll. Out of those they selected only 43% responded. One of Nate’s issues with OBD was that they mailed the questions. Your poll would be invalid under that rule:
The mailed survey was sent in three waves. The first wave included a cover letter, the survey, a stamped return envelope, and a $2 bill. Subsequent waves did not include an incentive. After each wave, physicians were called and asked to complete the survey and they were also offered the option of returning the survey by fax or email. Fielding of the first survey wave began on June 25th 2009 and all available data was analyzed on September 4th, 2009.
Bigd: “One of Nate’s issues with OBD was that they mailed the questions.>>
DAR
He said it is “unusual” and resulted in a error rate of 7% (in one poll).
Bigd: Your poll would be invalid under that rule:”>>
DAR
Not invalid. That was one concern of five and not remotely the strongest.
But I am impressed. Good job! I didn’t see that it was a mail out poll. I don’t like that. This certainly reduces it’s credibility because you lose the randomness (respondents may be more motivated from a particular persuasion).
However, notice that the AMA poll, which was a random sample of 6,000 members, produced the very same statistic.
This just came out Monday. I bet Nate won’t like it because of the mailing feature. It doesn’t nullify it but it weakens it for sure.
Now, back to your poll, junk!
D.
—————-
Question in your poll:
“Do you believe the government can cover 47 million more people and it will cost less money and the quality of care will be better?”
When a person who is generally positive about the prospects for health care reform reads that, they think “this poll is a ridiculous biased joke” and they toss the half-completed poll in the trash.
When a person who hates the ides of health care reform reads that, they check “yes” with glee and mail it right back.
You can’t put a question like that on a mail-in poll without killing the validity of your results. And you can’t have been in the polling business for two weeks without knowing the impact it is likely to have.”
–Jan Wolter, on 538
Bonus:
“A huge percentage of physicians said they would move out of the business when Medicare was being debated (back in 65). The opposite occurred – medical schools upped their attendance and we had more Doctors. Further, there is no evidence that any left, or if they did, it had no effect.
Scare tactics are just that: tactics.”
–Paul K.
Until now, that is- never before have we had the imposition of pay caps in the PUBLIC sector that is being proposed now- before, it was just Medicare/Medicaid- now it’s every bill presented by doctors?
That is unwarranted intrusion inour lives, and when you combine that with the costs tax- wise, alongside the climate bill, which does absolutely NOTHING, you have an untenable tax burden on a population that cannot sustain the cost without crippling adjustments in their lives.
Absolutely not true Darrel. I have given you the research. You just say that the place that did it is not credible and dismiss it. Your “roast” of it was to say that it was biased and not credible.
Fact: Medicare spends more than it takes in. Fact: VA and Medicare administrative costs are higher than reported but are absorbed by other agencies with. Fact: The government is broke. Fact: The only way for government to keep Medicare is to raise taxes because it is out of money.
You are wrong on this issue. It is a plain and simple fact that government does not run these efficiently. Government runs NOTHING efficiently.
Look at the billions in fraud in Medicare. Obama says he will control that under his new plan. Control it first and then let’s talk.
BD: “Fact: Medicare spends more than it takes in.>>
DAR
Fact: You changed your claim. You said they were broke. They aren’t broke. Rather than admit that, you moved the goal posts (fallacy).
BD: Fact: VA and Medicare administrative costs are higher than reported>>
DAR
Fact: Costs are FAR less than private sector because of cost controls. This is why no sane person, or even a republican, would suggest converting the VA to private.
BD: Fact: The government is broke.>>
DAR
Not really. We’ve had much higher debt in the past. And who has been the worst?
“The only presidents to add to the debt since WWII have been Reagan, GHW Bush and GW Bush: http://zfacts.com/p/480.html
“All other presidents since WWII have contributed nothing to the Gross Federal Debt,…”
So let’s not pretend like you republicans give a flip about “the debt.”
BD: Fact: The only way for government to keep Medicare is to raise taxes because it is out of money.>>
DAR
No, it isn’t. As I already referenced. It will be. Tax the rich. Repeat.
Don’t like that? Lower costs. This means socialize much more medicine with a “private option.” I think people should be able to choose a “private option.”
BD: “Government runs NOTHING efficiently.”
DAR
I know how the freemarket mantra goes, I just don’t believe in cult-like mantras based upon blind faith.
D.
—————–
“Other Conclusions
Health care costs “pose a serious threat” to the economy, CBO said (USA Today, 12/19). With no changes to the current system, health care spending will account for 25% of the gross domestic product in 2025, compared with 16% in 2007, CBO said (New York Times, 12/19).
http://www.kaisernetwork.org/DAILY_REPORTS/rep_index.cfm?DR_ID=56186
The countries pay nothing. The taxpayer pays it. You act as if the government makes money.
It confiscates the money and gives it to those who do not earn it.
Don’t let these rankings sway you, they are often biased and have little to do with actuality.
None of what you have described is part of a Socialist form of government
Darrel know not of what he speaks. Yes, I said broke. I did not mean they are bankrupt, they pay more than they take in. They cannot afford the bills. If I mean bankrupt I will say so. I did not change the goal posts and there is no fallacy. You use these crutches when your argument slips from you.
VA and Medicare are not less than private. Demonstrated time and again.
The rich already pay more than their share. You want to soak them until they decide not to play any more.
The wealthy paid more under Bush the middle class got a better tax cut.
We will see when they let this expire.
Also, you forgot to add Obama to your names of people who have added to the debt. You also forgot Clinton and Carter.
I have always railed against adding to the debt. The Democrats did, until Obama got elected. Even he was against what Bush did, until he did it himself.
Bigd: “Yes, I said broke. I did not mean they are bankrupt,>>
DAR
Again with the word games and pretending not to understand grade school definitions.
From dictionary.com:
broke
–verb
4. without money; penniless.
5. bankrupt.
8. go broke,
a. to become destitute of money or possessions.
b. to go bankrupt: In that business people are forever going broke.
Synonyms:
4, 5. insolvent, destitute, impoverished.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/broke
Bigd: “Also, you forgot to add Obama to your names of people who have added to the debt.>>
DAR
He’s still operating under a budget shared with Bush. Too early. Considering the train wreck he walked in upon, reasonable people will be giving him quite a break.
Bigd: “You also forgot Clinton and Carter.”>>
DAR
No I didn’t. They didn’t add to the debt. Reference already provided.
Bigd: “I have always railed against adding to the debt.”>>
DAR
Republicans do that. Then they blow money like drunken sailors. Usually on wars and subsidies for the rich. Stupid stuff.
Bigd: “VA and Medicare are not less than private. Demonstrated time and again.”>>
DAR
Try again:
Overview of VA Cost Methods – How do VA costs compare to the cost of non-VA providers?
Excerpts:
“Comparison of VA Cost to Medicare Reimbursement
The most thorough study comparing the relative cost of VA provided care was an HSR&D study that compared actual VA costs at six VA medical centers to the hypothetical fee-for-service payments for the same services that would have been paid by Medicare. The final report (Nugent, 2004) found that VA was providing care at a lower cost.”
[Dar note]: The VA gets it done cheaper than the rates medicare pays.
“CONCLUSIONS: That review finds no convincing evidence that VA has been significantly more or less efficient than nonfederal hospitals in delivering care. However, VA costs do appear to have been significantly lower than fee-for-service charges that the federal government might have to pay if veterans were treated in private sector hospitals for the same diagnoses.”
http://www.herc.research.va.gov/resources/faq_b06.asp
D.
“The wealthy paid more under Bush the middle class got a better tax cut.”
Want to clarify that statement? Do you mean they paid more in total or a higher percentage under G.W. Bush?
Thanks.
The wealthy paid a higher tax rate and they paid more in raw dollars.
The top 60% of wage earners pay 100% of the income taxes. The top 1% pay about 25%.
No matter how you slice it, the wealthy pay more.
Bigd: “The top 1% pay about 25%.”>>
DAR
According to Michael Moore’s new movie:
“The richest 1 percent have more financial wealth than the bottom 95 percent combined.”
So why aren’t they paying 95% of the taxes?
They’ve bought the politicians and are ripping us off.
Know what I like about Michael Moore? When he comes out with a documentary (usually recording breaking and always award winning) he backs up all of his claims, line by line, on his website. I don’t know anyone else that does that. Then when the lying liars, and BS artists spread their stuff around and go after him, all I have to do is go to his site and check his references. And then I bust them on their lies. Nice.
Oh if I only had a dime for every lie about Michael Moore I have knocked down!
D.
——————–
CapitalismALoveStory.com
AP: ‘Warmly Received’ | Variety: ‘Returning to His Roots, One of His Best Films’ | Time: ‘Moore’s Magnum Opus’ | Bloomberg: ‘Scathing, Effective and Hilarious’ | The Independent: ‘Rousing and Entertaining’ | Guardian: ‘Tumultuous Applause’
Next week.
Again, just trying to clarify what you wrote.
Of course under U.S. tax policy since 1930 higher incomes have paid higher rates of taxes. This has been true of all the presidents since Hoover. So how does Bush’s tax rates differ?
>>The top 60% of wage earners pay 100% of the income taxes.<<
What would this tell a thinking person about income distribution?
No one said it differs (that higher earners pay a higher rate) what is debated is whether the tax cuts benefited the wealthy more than the middle class.
The wealthy certainly did better in raw dollars but the middle class had a better percentage cut. Considering 40% do not pay taxes and they received credits and rebates then they made out well.
It would tell me that the highest wage earners pay a disproportionate share of the money that it takes to run the country and that the bottom 40% have no skin in the game.
The top 60% do not account for the greatest number of people.
Michael Moore is a moron who deceives people by using things out of context.
Why should the wealthy pay 95% of the taxes when they use far less government services than the other 95%?
The tax rate should be equal across the board so each person pays the same percent of income. Then everyone has an equal say in government. Right now 40% of the people can vote and pay nothing toward running the government (Medicare and SS are things they pay to benefit from in the future).
Bigd: Michael Moore is a [insult].>>
DAR
If you had good arguments/evidence for your claims you would use those rather than appeal to personal attack.
Bigd: Why should the wealthy pay 95% of the taxes>>
DAR
Because they (top 1%) have 95% of the wealth and this wealth is entirely dependent upon the health of the whole system.
Bigd: The tax rate should be equal across the board>>
DAR
Well then they can expect to get hammered even more. If Buffet were taxed at the same rate as his secretary his effective tax hit would almost double. Instead, the rules let the rich hide/shelter the vast majority of their wealth.
That said, the US tax system is, as you point out, rather progressive for the lower income folks. And that’s a good thing.
Bigd: Right now 40% of the people can vote and pay nothing>>
DAR
Voting has nothing to do with “paying.” See the Constitution.
Apparently what you want is a permanent aristocracy, not a democracy. Congratulations, we’re getting pretty close.
But after a while, you get too many poor people and just a few very wealthy people (see that 1%), then the poor rise up and eat the rich.
D.
Your Buffet argument was previously “roasted”