Obama Retreats To Get Something Passed
by Big Dog on Aug 16, 2009 at 14:31 Political
Barack Obama is working hard to get something, anything, passed with regard to health care. This is one of his signature pieces of legislation and something he based a large part of his campaign on so he needs it to pass. The problem is, more and more people do not trust him because of the way he handled the so called crisis known as the economic downturn. Obama said we had to act now and that we could not wait. No one read the bill and we ended up with 9000 items of pork in a bill that has failed to stimulate anything except our debt. It cost nearly a trillion dollars and has had no effect on the economy. It has been a failure.
Now people hear Obama making similar claims about having to do health care reform NOW. No one has read the bill and there are items in it that are unpopular because they are paths to rationing, socialism, and end of life decisions that will be mandates more than anything else.
This mess will also add a lot of money to the deficit because there is no method to pay for it.
Obama has used a straw man argument to push his health care agenda. He presents only two items, his plan and doing nothing. His position is that if anyone opposes what he wants then they are advocating for doing nothing. Then he goes on to attack the idea of doing nothing. The fact of the matter is there are plenty of things that can be done and there are plenty of people expressing ideas that do not involve a complete overhaul of the health care system. Some of them were presented when Obama was a Senator and he VOTED AGAINST EVERY ONE OF THEM. This is because Obama wants the government to have complete control over the health care system so that they can more tightly control our lives. This is a plan long espoused by communists who knew that taking control of the health care of people allows government to take control of people. Obama and the Democrats want control of the people. If Obama cared about the people or their health then he would have voted for the bills that were presented in the past but he DOES NOT CARE.
Barack Ocommunist is about controlling people and remaking America in the image of his hero Saul Alinksy. We as a people need to put a stop to Obama and his twinkle toes chief of staff who continues to run roughshod over those who oppose the Democrat’s agenda of destruction of our country.
The media wing of the Democratic party is on board with the New York Times and others claiming that opposition to Obamacare comes from conservatives as if no one else dares to take a stand against Obama and his merry men.
If things do not go well — and right now Mr. Obama’s political popularity is declining, his health care legislation is under conservative assault… [emphasis mine]
The Olbermans and other scumbags in the media are shilling for this disgrace of a leader and are working to help him transform America into a socialist country full of people living in subservience to the government. We cannot allow this to happen and people from all walks are stepping up to oppose this abortion. We need to keep the pressure on.
Republicans in Congress must not vote for any health care bill presented even if it does not include the public option. At this point in the game Obama is looking for anything he can call a victory and Bill Clinton is urging Democrats not to get too upset if they do not get all they want telling them they might not get the full loaf. The implication is that they need to get something passed and then it will be easier to tweak it down the road. Once that camel’s nose gets under the tent we will not keep it out.
We need to hand Obama a resounding defeat on this. If they decide to use procedures to bypass rules and allow the votes to go forward then let the Democrats be responsible for passing it. No Republican should vote for any portion of the Obama plan. It will be as terrible as the stimulus and be as big a failure.
Make the left pass it with their majority and hold them accountable for their vote. Any Republican ho votes for this should be rmoved from office.
We need to hand Obama a defeat and we need it to be a big defeat. He needs to be taken down a few pegs along with the people behind him. We need to reassert ourselves and show them who the boss is. They need to be reminded that they work for us.
Don’t be fooled by the change in tone. Obama is looking to save face politically and he is willing to sacrifice part of his wish list to be able to say he got health care reform passed.
We need to deny him this. Now is not the time to waiver or get weak. Keep putting pressure on them and make them feel the heat.
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Tags: Congress, health care, lies, media, Obama
You watch how quickly he sheds his “allies” if it gets him closer to a bill. He made a deal with big Pharma and the insurance companies, and now he is vilifying them- who is next, the media? He can’t blame it all on Fox and Glenn Beck.
Truthfully, it’s a very bad bill, and he should know it- hell, EVERYONE else does.
“It cost nearly a trillion dollars and has had no effect on the economy. It has been a failure.”
This of course going contrary to people actually qualified to make the statement you made.
I am not sure they are actually qualified to make any statements here, Adam-
Satchel Paige, the Negro League pitcher who is in the Hall of Fame, once said, “If you can do it, it aint braggin’.”
I just do not see where they have done anything here- can you point me to something that is discernible and positive, because even with my limited experience, I can see a long way to go, and not much that has been done.
Nobody is saying the stimulus has the economy humming again already but week after week the markets increase, confidence grows, and key numbers keep coming out better than predicted. If you read the article I linked to you’ll see that obviously not every economist blames the better than estimated results on the stimulus but most surveyed by Bloomberg do indeed feel like it has played a positive role.
A .1% anything is not much to base any conclusion on. These economists are wishing in one hand, and, well… you know the rest.
It’s kind of like Gore on Global Warming- scant evidence leads to faulty conclusions.
How’s your summer going? I hear it has been so cool that tomatoes refuse to ripen.
Maybe now it’ll be global cooling again- we will go retro!
Doing nothing is better than what he proposes.
Bloomberg has more to say on what you think has had no effect and has been a failure.
Here you go, dueling info:
http://beltwayblips.dailyradar.com/story/poll_57_don_t_see_stimulus_working/
Obama qualifications to reform health care:
No birth certificate
Cannot stop smoking
Difficulty telling the truth.
Narcissistic personality disorder
Therefore, I Igor produce Obama Birth Certificate at http://www.igormaro.org
Compare Obama Care vs Igor Care at Obama vs Igor Care
It’s not about healthcare. It’s not about making this country healthier. Its about, as you say, gaining control over people. its about tightening the noose. If you control life and you control death, you control anything.
Healthcare can be fixed without tearing it down to its foundations. It doesn’t need to be rebuilt.
The obviosu starting point is tort reform. Fixing malpratice. How many tests are run unnecessarily because doctors want to cover their asses. How many times to isnurance companies settle out of court even when the doctor is innocent just to avoid having pay to go to court and the possible ensuing judgment.
But Obama won’t touch that. neither Republicans or Democrats will. because the trial lawyes donate too much money. And because every politician has friens and family who make a living suign innocent doctors. So we will never see tort reform, though it is the perfect strat to freeing up money.
I have several posts of my own if you are interested at http://www.notjustaboringdentist.com
And many economists have said it is a failure. You indicate that I am unqualified to make the statement but I am as qualified as Obama who spent the money (my money at that). The stimulus has failed to create jobs, something they said it would do before they said it would take a while. The stimulus has added to the deficit more than 1 trillion dollars and the stimulus has had billions of dollars wasted on projects in states (like money for school supplies) and these do not increase jobs. The stimulus also has billions unaccounted for.
It had 9000 pork projects in it. It is a failure.
In reality, it is hard to say if the stimulus had anything to do with it because a recession runs its course and is over so this is probably more to do with the natural course than the stimulus.
They should have gone with the smaller package that did not spend as much money but the real reason was not to stimulate, it was to spend on pork and reward campaign donors and backers.
He spent our grandkid’s money to pay off his buddies and it has been a failure.
There is no way anyone can show that we got our money’s worth. The recession would have ended if we did nothing.
And you forget, the inflation that will cripple us next year. It is coming and then I wonder what you will say, what excuse you will make for the messiah.
History shows that the stimulus was the wrong thing. It has been a failure.
They have only spent a portion of the stimulus- they should claw back the rest and pay down the debt, or give tax cuts to the people, but libs react to tax cuts like vampires to garlic, so that won’t happen.
Big Dog:
First of all the “9000 pork projects” was not the stimulus and that argument died months ago. I guess you didn’t get the memo.
Second, simply saying “many economists” think the stimulus has failed is meaningless. You completely ignore the article I posted in order to parrot what you’ve said from day one: “The stimulus has failed.” Sorry, that’s just simply not supported by a majority of economists right now and you’re wrong. You may be qualified to talk about some things but you certainly aren’t qualified to second guess what a majority of economists believe right now simply because you’re such a partisan.
Third, you’ve simply made up the idea that Obama acted like the stimulus would be quick and now they’re saying it will be slow. This is a total lie and you know it. I for one have always said from the beginning that they designed the stimulus to aid recovery more than end the recession. You were the one acting like Obama thought he’d wave a wand and fix everything. You’ve used one of your own lies to accuse Obama of lying. Fantastic.
But I don’t expect you to change your opinion. You have one opinion of the stimulus and one opinion only: “It’s a failure.” You’re simply going to lie and lie some more regardless of what more qualified folks than you have to say about it. I guess in your world having lived a sufficient amount of years makes you more qualified than the people who actually study economics and make these calls for a living.
Actually, they designed the porkulus to aid their cause, getting re elected, andthat is all they did. Why do you think they loaded it the way they did?
The fact is that Barry said the stimulus would help right away, which is why (allegedly) they were in such a hurry to pass it- now they say it was always designed to work slowly.
Are you really that gullible, Adam?
And if 300 economists agree with you, and 299 agree with me. that would not be a “clear” majority- just one more than our side.
The situation is still in flux, but it doesn’t look good from where I sit.
Sorry Adam, just because a bunch of liberals say there were no earmarks does not make it so. The bill contained around 9000 earmarks, items that were added to get support and items that have nothing to do with stimulating.
I read the report. There are some economists that think the stimulus is working. There are others who do not. You libs like to say a majority when you do not have a majority. Prove it is a majority rather than a handful. It is like global warming, you claim a majority of scientists when just as many disagree. The difference is, if they disagree with you they are discounted as the wrong kind of scientist or as a wacko.
As for Obama, he and Biden said this stimulus would JUMP START the economy. A jump start is something that takes place quickly. Obama said that unemployment would not go above 8% if we rushed to pass this. It was needed NOW. They both said that it would have affects by the Summer.
Then when things went south they started saying it was never meant to be fast. They directly contradicted their earlier statements.
The stimulus has spent very little on job creation and has done little to help the economy. The normal progress of a recession would bring us out of it by now.
We have a bill to pay because of this and it is in the trillions. Inflation will hit next year and drive things to hell.
I might not be qualified in your book but I listen to and read the people who predicted this down turn a year before it happened. While all the people in charge were missing the boat, some folks were getting it right.
And Warren Buffet, the guy Obama listens to, is against a lot of what he is doing.
Adam, I know you don’t understand this because you are a liberal but you cannot spend money you do not have and make things better.
The bill will come due and it will hurt.
You cannot print money without problems and hyperinflation will hit next year.
Say what you want and look for the glimmers of hope in Obamadinejad but you will be forced to admit I was right.
I doubt you will because you will defend him NO MATTER WHAT, but I will know.
When little Timmy Geithner asks to “monetize the debt” what he is saying is that he is conceding that inflation, indeed hyperinflation is just around the bend, because you cannot just “print” money, or it has no value.
But that is just what the little leprechaun wants to do- thing is, there is no pot of gold at the end of this rainbow.
A normal recession is about 18 months, on average- this one is 22 months now, so obviously the “stimulus” hasn’t helped, indeed you could make the case, at least in the case of the Cash for Clunkers program, is hurting people, because it is incentivizing people to take on debt they could do without, but then there are a lot of people who love to be led around by the nose.
The capitalist system rewards success, and punishes failure.
With the stimulus, we are rewarding failure.
In the future, EVERYONE will get a trophy, just for showing up— wait, that sh*t is happening now.
No wonder we have people who feel entitled.
It’s apparently impossible for you to argue about the stimulus bill without telling a lie.
You know the so-called “9000 earmarks” were not part of the stimulus bill. You know that a growing number of people actually qualified to state their opinion on the economy disagree with your unqualified opinion. You know that the government isn’t simply printing money so talk of hyperinflation isn’t accurate. You know you said it failed from day 1 and that that makes you have zero credibility to parrot about any failure on day N.
Yet there you go again arguing until you’re blue in the face, having no credibility, no sources to back up what you’re saying. You’re so full of lies on this subject it’s pathetic.
Adam, check out this article by an honest conservative (they do exist):
The GOP’s Misplaced Rage.
“Bruce Bartlett was one of the original supply-siders, helping draft the Kemp-Roth tax bill in the 1970s. In the 1980s and 1990s, he was a leading Republican economist. He now considers himself to be a political independent.”
Another guy who ignores the fact that Congress was n the control of Democrats for the last 2 years of Bush and that not all these “angry” people at town hall meetings are conservatives.
The guy is only honest because he touts your blame Bush for it all philosophy.
The economy was ruined by the Congressional Democrats who were in charge when it went south (and I highly suspect was assisted by operatives who wanted to ensure an Obama victory).
It ALL belongs to Obama. The stimulus has not worked and the health care bill is a disaster.
I am not worried about me or my immediate family. I know too many doctors to worry and I remember the movie John Q. I am worried about my elderly family members. If the plug gets pulled based on cost then I will need show up at the hospital when guys like Byrd and Kennedy are in there and pull the plugs…
Here is what I see coming if this passes.
A black market where doctors treat people “under the table.” An elitist government who is not subject to the same rules. People having decisions made by bureaucrats and health care rationed.
A second American Revolution.
I already have my “under the table” doctor- a friend who I take fishing- and we trade talents- it works out fine.
h Darrel- I guess Adam is another “freeloader” whose parents are sucking off of your insurance premiums also- gotta watch even your allies in this day and age.
Blake apparently shares your affinity for lying about economics:
Barring a 2nd deep dip (which is always possible of course) this recession has most likely already ended and we are starting recovery. Still, the National Bureau of Economic Research will make that call when the time comes. So when you say “obviously the ‘stimulus’ hasn’t helped” I think what you mean to say is that you “obviously” don’t know what you’re talking about.
Adam- since you missed it before, here it isi again:
http://beltwayblips.dailyradar.com/story/poll_57_don_t_see_stimulus_working/
But Adam, the stimulus cannot have helped because your guys said that it would not have effects until next year.
You got sucked into the trap. When things were more bleak you said it was not supposed to have an effect until next year and now that things area little better you say it was the stimulus. If it was not supposed to help until next year how could it have worked?
As for your ability to argue, it is typical. Call names and say I am unqualified. Prove there were no earmarks and that they are not printing money because that is what they are doing and there were around 9000 earmarks in the bill.
Those things are only “debunked” by you libs as a way to help Obambam. The truth is you all claim it is untrue and say it was debunked. Th stimulus included thousands of earmarks to get people to vote for it. Most of the bill had nothing to do with stimulating the economy.
Adam, you keep saying I am lying and unqualified to have a say in this (I guess I am unqualified to have an opinion too) but my household budget is balanced. In fact, I have a surplus each month. I live within my means so I am more qualified than the jokers who voted for a bill spending more than we have and raising the debt.
Like I said, there are economists on both sided of the issue. All I can say is when the inflation hits next year I will make you admit that I was right and that I was qualified to make a prediction. You will be admitting that next year.
And the recession is not over based on the market. In fact, the market has done better each time Obama has a problem passing an agenda.
The market does not like when government tinkers in it.
Funny though, when the market was at 14k during Bush you guys said the market did not matter and there were other things that needed to be looked at. Now that the market started moving in a good direction that is all you guys look at.
Unemployment, and the soon to come inflation will be the problem.
You can’t stimulate the economy by spending money you do not have. It did not work for FDR and it will not work for Obama. We will have a repeat of Carter on the inflation front.
The economy will cost Dems seats next year.
MOST LIKELY ENDED?
That is a definite maybe. Yes, the proper people will call and end to it when the time comes but they have not done so yet so it is still ongoing and the recovery will take a much longer time.
What we can say is that obviously Adam uses conjecture to indicate fact. Most likely does not mean it has.
So Blake is right, it is not over yet.
There were just a handful of earmarks in the stimulus bill. The 9000 earmarks were part of the omnibus spending bill that had very little to do with the stimulus bill.
I have never said the stimulus would have zero effect so soon so I’m not sure what imaginary trap you think I’ve fallen into. The fact is the largest parts of the stimulus are geared toward recovery in the long term while several job creation bits and tax cuts were geared towards helping end the recession in the short term. The problem is you keep imagining things Obama or another Dem said and then when you see one of us say something different than what your imagined you accuse us of being trapped. That’s pretty typical of you though.
Krugman explains here in video why the feds are not just printing money and why it’s not as inflationary as you keep saying.
Blake:
Yes, a majority of folks no longer support the stimulus. Since when does that mean those questioned are capable of saying whether or not the stimulus has had an actual impact on the recession as actual economists are saying it has?
Because it is the folks who are or are not affected by the non- stimulus- it really is that simple. The economists are only affected by the “stimulus” in that they are paid to talk about it.
Recessions seem to wash over a country in waves similar to those in a bathtub- the wave hits the wall, it doesn’t cease, instead it bounces back, and washes over everything again- perhaps not as hard, but still, again.
We are not done.
Wouldn’t it be funny (in a strange way) if Adam gets his wish and the health care bill passes and he can celebrate that his mom and dad are now covered by the taxpayer (making them wards of the state) and then some bureaucrat decides that they are too ill to live and pulls the plug.
Adam will have been responsible for the death of his parents.
Elections have consequences.
Obviously it’s hard to argue with you two when you’ll lie over and over again about things that are a matter of public record like the omnibus spending bill, so I guess we just have to give it more time and see who’s right and who’s wrong.
In the future while you are peeing in your pants over some paranoid delusion about healthcare or terrorists or anything like that, please refrain from mentioning how my wife or my parents may die because you are right and I am wrong. It’s completely tasteless bullshit and you know it.
No- you brought up your folks- I did not say that they will die, but if the healthcare bill passes, the possibility exists, and Hussein’s bureaucracy will not care that you voted for or against him- it’s for the “Good of the State, you see”.
Or, as Don Corleone might say, ” Its business, not personal.”
Except it’s personal TO YOU.
Like Krugman is qualified to say anything. They are printing money and you will see the inflation.
Of course they are saying the opposite but we will see it.
Once again Adam selects a left wing wacko to prove a point. No, we are not printing money, not at all.
We are transparent (lie), we will not hire lobbyists (lie), we will not do the things Bush did (lie), and we know what we are doing (lie).
They said it would JUMP START things Adam. They claimed it would not allow unemployment to go above 8% Adam.
The stimulus bill was full of earmarks and the omnibus bill was as well. Nice of you to admit that Obama lied when he discussed earmark reform
“Like Krugman is qualified to say anything.”
See, this is where you start to look crazy.
Oh right, Krugman’s not a Nobel Prize winning economist or anything. I mean, compared to you and your economics degree and years working with, writing about, and teaching economics, Krugman is a real doofus.
You know, I won’t deny Obama has broken promises. You always mistake my unwillingness to let your total lies about Obama go unquestioned with a total inability for me to admit Obama makes mistakes.
Yes, Obama was wrong about employment figures. That’s all you have to prove the stimulus has already failed and it’s pathetic.
Sorry you feel that way Adam. Obviously you don’t think that people should be held accountable for their actions but then again you are a lib and libs are never responsible for the things they do.
Now you understand how serious some people feel about this. It is OK to mock seniors worried about being denied treatment and dismissing them as “angry” conservatives or racists.
But, as soon as the message is turned around and your parents are the target you get your panties in a wad. If there is no worry about such a thing why would you let it bother you? I guess you are OK if the parents of others die off as long as your mommy and daddy are not among them.
You said Blake and I are lying, not so. The Omnibus and the stimulus contained earmarks, those things Obama said he would get rid of. Now THAT is a lie and he is a liar but I have not heard you call him that.
As for peeing our pants over terrorists, you have us mistaken with some liberal, like you, who has no idea about how to defend himself. Blake and I are willing to take the bad guys on and we will not pee our pants while doing it.
But the next time you are peeing your pants because someone said something bad about your mom, dad, or wife, remember that there are plenty of people with concerns and if you are wrong and this happens then you should have to suffer for what YOU allowed to happen.
So little class for such a big talking military man. It’s a shame really.
Adam, speaking the truth in a plain spoken way is not classless- it is actually all part of common sense- do not clutter up the verbal scenery by using excessive and unnecessary verbiage. Get my drift?
You and I go back a bit now but we don’t know each other’s families and we have no right to bring them up and say things like “Wouldn’t it be funny…” It’s not like I think we aren’t discussing policies here that affect the lives of real people. We are. That’s not it at all. It’s just that you keep finding the most tasteless and senseless ways of bringing my family into this and it’s not funny and it’s not helpful to the argument, so stop doing it, and stop defending yourself that way when you do do it.
And how many times has Krugman been wrong? The Nobel means nothing. Al Gore got one and what for? It was a peace prize and his subject had nothing to do with peace. It would have been a science one but his topic is not science.
So the Nobel means nothing to me.
Krugman is a political hack first and anything else second.
And how many times has Krugman been wrong? I don’t know, you tell me. He was one of the few folks with a public platform saying the economy was headed for crisis while others were saying it was just fine.
The difference between my side and your side apparently is that our left wing wackos are people like Krugman who are high profile economists with prestigious honors. Your right wing wackos are apparently people like Joe the Plumber and Sarah Palin. It’s sad really.
But I might add for the record that nobody is saying Krugman is right 100% of the time, but it is you who said in all your craziness: “Like Krugman is qualified to say anything.” Right. He’s not qualified at all…
Adam- Krugman isn’t even right 50% of the time, and as we have seen, Nobel prizes are cheap- I could probably get one down at the pawn shop.
If Carter, and Gore can get one, why not? And as for a Pulitzer, that ones even sleazier- witness that t**t Dowd- my dog writes better than her.
Point being, be careful who you point to- they might not be as good an example as you would like.
Back to the thread, Hussein has had a remarkable chain of failures.
The Stimulus WAS supposed to stimulate- it did not.
The TARP was supposed to cover the debt shortfall- it did not, as they kept changing its mission parameters.
Cap and trade will not make it out of the Senate if the Senators know what is good for the country,
The people are waking up, and in many cases they know more than the reps. about the bills .
Adam, you don’t know any of the people who will be affected by the health care bill and it is OK with you.
Sorry if it bothers you but tasteless or not it makes the argument personal.
And stop cherry picking, I said wouldn’t it be funny in a strange sort of way, not in a humorous one so quit playing games.
Now that you see it up close and personal it is different.
Oh brother. Do you ever re-read some of the things you write and think to yourself: “Boy I’m a pretty pompous little jackass, aren’t I?” You should if you don’t, because you are.
You don’t have to make the argument personal for me because it already is. I have family members who along with millions of other Americans have no health insurance whatsoever and who at any time could face complete financial ruin over changes in their health. That’s not real to you though is it? Oh no, what’s real to you is some absolute paranoid delusion about our elderly having their plug pulled on them by some bureaucrat. That’s what worries you most.
I’m glad you made me see the light on this, boy howdy. Let’s all storm down to that town hall meeting and make asses of ourselves and make sure health care reform doesn’t pass! Let’s bring guns too…
Denying a little old lady a procedure simply because she is old is cruel and, dare I coin a term for the action; “Emanuelesque?” In his little screed on rationing and “Quality life “, he says that five 84 year old lives are equal to one 15 year old- that’s pretty cold, especially if your mom is 84.
How old are yours. Adam?
Would you be OK with denial of care due to age, when it is your family? I mean, it’s great talking in the abstract, but when it comes to real people, it is different.
And maybe you should look up the word ‘funny’ because saying you meant funny not in a humorous way but a strange way, well, that’s pretty stupid.
Why did you not look it up yourself before you made yourself look like you have never known a dictionary?
If there are people who are willing to front more taxes to pay for health care for everyone, why wouldn’t they just pony up the money personally to use one of the plans available to have their friends/family/sponsored family covered? Then you are doing a good deed and helping to prevent financial ruin for those you care for but at the same time not trying to socialize our government and nationalize everyone’s healthcare.
It’s like going “green” and all that. I have no problem with people doing what they feel is right to protect or save the environment. I have a problem when the government starts mandating that this or that must be done in the name of global warming (or climate change or whatever). The same for healthcare. People are free to do what they think is right by sponsoring a family or perhaps finding ways to include their family members in their own plan rather than making everyone join on the same bandwagon.
I looked up funny. Too bad they did not teach you this in college:
differing from the ordinary in a suspicious, perplexing, quaint, or eccentric way : peculiar —often used as a sentence modifier
Peculiar means strange. So when I said funny, in a strange sort of way, it was in accordance with the above definition from Webster.
You make the false assumption that because I oppose the Obama plan of a complete overhaul of the system that I oppose any reform. This is the straw man he uses to get what he wants. He says there are two options, his way or no way.
I have already presented a number of things that could be done that would make it better and get health care coverage to the 12 million or so who cannot afford it. 47 million is a fictitious number. The actual number is 12 to 18 million. I have given the ways to do it at less cost and without junking what we have that works. In fact, Obama voted against many methods that would have done that when he was a Senator.
Now Adam, you might have a point when you claim that I am not an economist and that my opinion means little in that debate but I can damn well assure you I know more about health care and the system than Obama does, than you do and than any of the people in Congress who are pushing this monstrosity.
The things I have written about would help those people without overhauling an entire system and giving complete control to the government.
And no one is acting a fool at town hall meetings. People are angry and they are shouting. You have to shout or they do not listen. No one has brought guns to a town hall meeting.
In fact, the only violence has been perpetrated by the union thugs there to support health care.
Before you make the mistake of saying that the guy up north brought a gun, he never attended a town hall meeting, he had a carry permit and carried everywhere he went so that was no different and he was on private property. The sheriff and the secret service knew about him and had no problem with him. It is the morons in society like Chris Matthews who cry about someone exercising a right. Only a moron assumes the guy was up to no good rather than doing what he does every day, carry a weapon in accordance with the law and his rights.
Well, wouldn’t it be funny (in a strange way) if from now on you could refrain from using my family as in example in your paranoid delusions about things like the elderly being killed against their will by a bureaucrat? That sure would be nice of you. It’s one thing to invoke the crazy in general but it’s another for you to be so arrogant as to assume I argue a point of view so disconnected as to not consider the effect it would have on my own family. Show some class.
If you want to see a straw man take a look at your “complete overhaul” argument. It would mean something if Obama’s plan was a “complete overhaul” but it’s not, and we all know it. We’re not switching to some Canadian or UK like system and we’re not starting from the ground up.
There is no “might have a point” over economics. You have no experience and you say things that aren’t true.
On Healthcare I know you have knowledge but it’s pretty bold to assume you know more than the President or the Congress. Certainly you know more than some of them, certainly more than me, but come on, all of them? Let’s not get too crazy.
If you get the governments foot in the door, it will be devastating- the post office, DMV,and Medicare come to mind, as well as the VA- none of them good. What in God’s name leads you to the erroneous conclusion that this would be different from those, or would waste our money less
If Hussein had just given everyone the money to buy their own insurance it would cost less, and would have stimulated the economy.
Everyone talks about the “bad old capitalist insurance companies”- well, it is not a hobby for them.
Liberals love to demonize, but their conclusions are faulty, because they operate from a false premise.
GIGO.
Who is paranoid in this? You are the one who perceives some threat to your family. i believe it is you who is having delusions.
Yes, complete overhaul and this s what one of YOUR Democrats in Congress called it.
This country was founded on principles of freedom- now our freedoms are being pinched, squeezed, and totally taken away, in the name of better government, and that is wrong. It is this freedom that has made us great for over two hundred years- and now the liberals want to do away with this.
It was the promise of a future where the money a person could make could free us from the everyday world of scratching out a meager living, and the liberals want us to curtail that in the name of “fairness”-
NEWS FLASH- Life is not fair, and money can be a good insulator from some of what life throws at you.
I know, for example, that if you are poor, you can die from a common cold, but with money, you can buy medicine to treat the cold. That is life, and that is the reason that people from all over the world want to come here- for the “insulation” they can earn.
Take that away, as the liberals want, and what do you have?
I also note, liberals like Soros,Brad Pitt, and others, all want to limit others, but feel that they should be exempt- if that isn’t elitist, I do not know what is.
Funny, conservatives arguing as if all that matters is themselves and their family, as if they are an island. But as you say, “NEWS FLASH”, we are still a country of people and the truth is elements of our society affect all of us, including the health of our people.
It would be good to remember that we are a country founded not just on individual liberties but as a union of states and we’ve spent 233 or so years trying to keep that balance. You can pretend that’s all crumbling in a few months under Obama or you can face the reality that even with full majorities in Congress Obama still has to answer to the other branches of government and is not just running wild changing laws and taking power as you seem to believe. That’s just paranoia for you.
It’s strange that you talk about elitist liberals like Soros and Pitt when liberals like myself outnumber them a million to one. Doesn’t that mean something to you?
Here’s a flash for you- yes- he is trying to remake the whole enchilada. And yes- our liberties are being threatened by this POS.
Answer to who? Our suck- a** legislature who will be the pivot man for Hussein? Oh yeah- now there’s a straw argument for you.
While his cabinet must answer to Congress, when have you heard anything about his Cabinet?
It is his “Czars” you have to watch- now we have, what- 32 of them? And the newest is the laughably named “diversity”czar, Mark Lloyd, who wants to charge talk radio 100% of their gross as the” fee” for their license. If they can’t pay that, he will give that license to a liberal voice, for free- in the name of “diversity” this man is trying to silence freedom of speech here.
Is that NOT going around the intent, indeed the law, of the Constitution?
And just to be crystal clear on this- I am not concerned about my family- I can and will do whatever I need to , but I AM concerned about the Constitution, and if you are not, you really need to move to a country where the constitution is a piece of toilet paper, like perhaps Venezuela. You might be happy there, but here, it is the Constitution and it’s legal protections that have enabled our country to become great.
Liberals like you don’t counter Soros and Pitt any more than a White horses fewmets are better than a brown horses’.
No Adam, it is a complete overhaul of the system. Why is it over a thousand pages and why does it allow government to intrude?
It is a complete overhaul. To use your words, you are not qualified to have an opinion in this debate.
I do know more about it than Obama and I never said I knew more than everyone n Congress. I said I knew more about it than the people who are pushing it.
Funny Adam, Obama has majorities and cannot pass it. He is pushing stuff that is unconstitutional and tat has not been read.
As for the country and the people, we survived for a very long time before we had all the social welfare. We have become a nation of people who wait for someone to take care of them.
I have NO duty to provide for anyone other than my family. You have a duty to provide for yours.
If I have to provide for others then I should have a say in how they live. They need to be sterilized so they cannot have children they cannot afford. They should be randomly drug tested if they receive taxpayer money. Test positive and go to jail.
You see, if I support you then you have to live by my rules. If you want to be independent than provide for yourself (these are generic yous).