Perception Is Often Reality
by Big Dog on Apr 7, 2010 at 20:51 Political
Not long ago I wrote about the free Obama care that was signed into law. I was taken to task by someone who failed to realize that the plan was perceived as free. I was challenged to show that Obama said that it would be free. He gave that impression. He made it sound as if affordable health care was free health care and those in society who live off the taxpayers who fund government swallowed it up hook, line, and sinker. They swallowed it up because they believe their sainted leader will GIVE them health care.
Now that perception has become reality because not only have people bought into the idea that health care will be free, they have been calling up and asking how to get it.
Two weeks after President Barack Obama signed the big health care overhaul into law, Americans are struggling to understand how — and when — the sweeping measure will affect them.
Questions reflecting confusion have flooded insurance companies, doctors’ offices, human resources departments and business groups.
“They’re saying, ‘Where do we get the free Obama care, and how do I sign up for that?’ ” said Carrie McLean, a licensed agent for eHealthInsurance.com. The California-based company sells coverage from 185 health insurance carriers in 50 states. McClatchy
For over a year this debate consumed America. People knew that it would force Americans to buy insurance as a condition of being a citizen in good standng and that it would not take effect until four years from now but people are still calling to sign up for their free care. They were bewildered when told that it does not take effect right away.
Forgetting all the things that have been said about the bill, how can people who follow the news not know that they would not get it free and that it did not start for four years?
Easy, Obama made it sound free. He made it sound like people would get something for nothing when he said the government would help those who were unable to afford the insurance. His followers took that to mean that the government would take care of them FOR FREE. This is because they always look to government to care for them.
Another troubling thing is that we allow these people to vote. We let people who cannot, after a year, understand what is going on, vote in our elections. We have people who could not empty a bucket if the directions were written on the bottom and we let them vote.
These kind of people voting is how America gets a person like Obama in office.
They are the people who give his regime its power.
Like I have said before. Every person should get one vote for being an American and then people should get additional votes for each $5000 in taxes they pay. Just like voting stock shares in a company, those who have more stock in the country should get more shares to vote.
So for 47% of the country, one vote is all they would get (yeah, once again nearly half of the country paid no federal income taxes or got more back than they paid in).
Never surrender, never submit.
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Tags: free care, ignorance, lies, Obama
Bigd: “how can people who follow the news not know that they would not get it free…”>>
DAR
Note to Bigd, American news is overwhelmingly filled with, spin and misinformation and astonishing falsehoods. It’s atrocious. And that’s the better stuff, which is head and shoulders above the sources you typically appeal to. This can’t be tagged on Obama but rather to the misinformation campaigns regularly shoveled by your team, and their republican network.
Bigd: “and that it did not start for four years?”>>
DAR
Another perfect example another entirely BOGUS information from your team. Here is a huge list, of really important stuff that kicks in within months:
What’s In The Health Reform Bill For You Right Away?.
Bigd: “Easy, Obama made it sound free.”>>
DAR
Then you shouldn’t have had any trouble providing an example of this when I asked you for one. Yet you did. And still do. So you appeal to people’s supposed perceptions and try to smear him with that.
Bigd: “…he said the government would help those who were unable to afford the insurance.”>>
DAR
What he said, is true. When politicians say things that are true, this is a good thing. Clapping is appropriate.
Bigd: “His followers took that to mean that the government would take care of them FOR FREE.”>>
DAR
You don’t give any examples but you can’t control what people take something “to mean.” The reality is that it means we, the wealthiest nation on the planet, are now going to join the rest of the grown-up countries and not let people suffer and die because they are poor. And fix a lot of other ridiculous bugs that should have and would have been fixed long ago if industry wasn’t tapped into and addicted to the 50%+ of the health care dollars flowing through the government.
Bigd: “Another troubling thing is that we allow these people to vote.”>>
DAR
Yes, representative democracy. Very troubling. Don’t like it, take it up with the founders.
Bigd: “These kind of people voting is how America gets a person like Obama in office.”>>
DAR
It’s called government representing the will of the people. Something else the founders were fond of. Being against that is being unamerican.
Perhaps what you are looking for is a nice aristocracy. A nice Dickensian hell hole where instead of the top 5% controlling most of the wealth (as we have now), only the top 1% have it all and everyone else begs for soup. Truly the republican paradise, but not really the American ideal is it?
D.
—————-
The Heritage institute says Canada just passed the US in being economically “free.” Interesting.
“Every person should get one vote for being an American and then people should get additional votes for each $5000 in taxes they pay.”
I’ve looked before and I have yet to find a worse idea than this one. It’s hard to imagine living in a country where the rich had even more power over the poor than they already do.
If you are going to play the game, you should ante up- noone plays for free.
Adam, a worse idea would be allowing illegals to vote, appointing dictators, military coups. I am sure you are just not thinking.
Darrel, the list of things is minor and has little impact on the majority of people. The truth is that the major care portions do not take place for four years, just a fact. The taxes happen now and the bulk of the care happens in four years.
As for the misinformation, look left and you can see it. The left put out as much misinformation about this as anyone.
It is funny how you say that this is the government representing the will of the people but applauded the government for doing the exact opposite in the health care bill.
A majority disapproved and they still passed it. They went against the will of the people but you were happy with that so don’t tell me about the will of the people.
The morons who are unaware are clueless because they do not pay attention. The people who can tell you the latest on American Idol or Dancing With The Stars cannot tell you anything about this law.
Yes, these are the people who believed that Palin said she could see Russia from her house and who thought pro life was a wonderful idea when presented as Obama’s position. The videos of these idiots are ut there.
Terrible idea, eh Adam. Not as bad as having 47% of the country paying no income taxes and many getting back more than they paid in. Why do they deserve the money that ther people worked hard for and why are they not paying their fair share.
They need to have skin in the game or we need to change voting laws to make them equitable. The people who have a bigger stake should have a bigger say.
It is just as fair as the level playing field that says the hard earned money of those who work and pay taxes should be confiscated and given to those who pay nothing.
If the rich have so much power over the poor then how is it the poor determine the elections (with the help of rich people like Soros)?
The rich take the risks and provide the jobs. How is that having power over people?
And from what I see, most of these people have to have someone with power over them or they would perish.
And you don’t seem to mind the politicians having power over us. That runs contrary to the Constitution.
Bigd: “A majority disapproved and they still passed it.”>>
DAR
Really? Is that why Gallup found that 49% called passing the Bill “a good thing.”
And only 40% called it a “bad thing.” (with 11% unsure) Link.
The truth is, as you have been shown repeatedly, when you include those opposed from the left, you have a majority for it. The above Gallup poll reflects this.
“Why do they deserve the money that other people worked hard for and why are they not paying their fair share.”
Well, you still have a warped sense of a fair share as you go around thinking the poor don’t work hard and contribute and earn tax breaks and credits that make it easier for them to succeed in life.
“The rich take the risks and provide the jobs.”
Still wrong, of course. The rich don’t provide the jobs, that’s what the middle class does.
“If the rich have so much power over the poor then how is it the poor determine the elections (with the help of rich people like Soros)?”
Maybe take a peek at the multi-million dollar lobbyist industry as a start. The poor may have more votes but it pretty much ends there. Our politicians count on the poor being too busy working to be politically active and let big corporate vultures instead have the most voice in the political system.
No Adam, I do not think that the poor don’t work hard (those who are actually working) I just don’t think they work any harder than the people who are wealthy and the hard work of any poor person does not entitle that person to someone else’s money.
The rich provide capital, they provide jobs, they provide opportunity. I never got a job from a poor person.
I think that people who earn money should be able to keep it and spend it as they see fit whether that means spending it one themselves and their families or sharing it through charities.
You think that the poor are entitled to someone else’s money, money they did not earn. You think that it is OK to take money from one group of people and give it to another.
Now tell me, which of us has a warped idea of fair? I think that it is fair for a person to keep his own property (and your money is your property) and you think it is OK to take that property and give it away. You think that the government can best decide how to give my money away and that I can’t do that so well.
Yep, you have the fair sense of fair…
“You think that the poor are entitled to someone else’s money, money they did not earn.”
No. I do not think the poor are entitled to anything they do not earn. I just very much believe they earn more than what they get and get far less than they put in. They work as hard or harder than anyone above them yet they are getting far less pay for the kind of work that is more dangerous, less glamorous, has fewer benefits, etc., but is completely essential to our way of life.
I’m not crazy or stupid. I don’t think they are entitled to wages on par with doctors or engineers for instance. But I do think the working poor earn every bit of the tax credits and other programs that cut them a break.
“I think that it is fair for a person to keep his own property (and your money is your property) and you think it is OK to take that property and give it away.”
Just remember. You don’t oppose your “property” going to things like police and fire and the military. Or things like roads or scientific research. You just oppose your “property” going to things that poor people rely on more than you do to live slightly better such as EITC or WIC or SNAP.
Adam- I think you have a very skewed idea of what life is like, and for that, I blame your educators- you see- they haven’t really had to work- a guaranteed job does that to you. Once tenured, a person can open up his radical side and spout fewmets all day long to poor students who know no better, adn looke to this educator for guidance.
This is educational abuse, and your thought processes are the end result. It is flawed thinking like this that gave us Social Security, Medicare, and now, Barriecare.
TJ said it best- “Government governs best when it governs Least.”
But of course you would not know this, as your profs probably kept the real workings of things like the Constitution from you.
America is certainly not the richest country in the world anymore, as we owe money to other countries and can’t pay it. We are dependent on other countries for our oil and imports and if they ever ask for the money we owe them, they will own us. As long as Obama is in, it will only get worse. I don’t understand why Adam and Darrell cannot see what is happening to this country. I think the answer is they just don’t want to see because they are narcisstic just like Obama and could never admit to being wrong.
BARB: “America is certainly not the richest country in the world anymore”>>
DAR
Which country is richer Barbara?
You’re wrong, and it’s not even close.
US GDP, over $14 trillion.
Japan is second with about $5 trillion.
D.
————-
“The 1,011 people on this list [of billionaires] command a phenomenal amount of personal wealth. Their holdings are larger than the gross domestic products of every country besides China, Japan, and the United States. The wealth of the 403 US billionaires could more than cover the 2008 US federal deficit, with money left over for the states.”
Link.
I’m not sure if you really know what that word narcissistic means.
No, I think in this instance, she might be right, if you use the term “self-centered” instead, you get a fairly accurate description of both you and
Darrel, although Darrel has you beat on the arrogance scale.
Yes I do.
It’s the conservative in me.
Remember the woman who supported Obama because “He’s going to pay my mortgage?”
One of the greatest and most destructive of all illusions is that a good or service — any good or service — can be “free.” Nothing in this material world can be free. Someone must always pay for it, whether with money or labor. If the payee is not the ultimate consumer, then that consumer has been given a gift, but someone, somewhere has paid for that gift.
It’s the same with debt. We sometimes speak of “forgiving” a debt incurred by a person (or nation) that can’t (or won’t) repay it. But “forgiveness” doesn’t make the debt’s burden vanish. It simply means that the debt has been paid by the lender.
If the illusion of “free goods” could somehow be destroyed, the entire race of politicians would crumble into dust. But wishful thinking being as powerful as it is, that won’t happen in my lifetime or yours.
The poll was taken after the vote and the polls before the vote showed more opposed than supported. And now polls show an overwhelming majority against. You and Adam like Rasmussen when he agrees with you and chide his methods when they do not.
The reality is that more opposed than supported regardless of why they opposed. They did not vote the will of the people and no post vote poll that is elevated when pre polls were not can show this.
Bigd: The poll was taken after the vote…”>>
DAR
Right. A most EXCELLENT time to see what people think of it’s passage. They like it. Even after the storm of lies you guys tried throwing at it.
Bigd: and the polls before the vote showed more opposed than supported.>>
DAR
Right, for well understood, verifiable, reasons. Many people wanted something far to the left of what happened, i.e. single payer.
Bigd: And now polls show an overwhelming majority against.”>>
DAR
Didn’t you just complain about polls after the vote? Why yes you did. And you forgot to bring any evidence too.
Bigd: more opposed than supported regardless of why they opposed.”>>
DAR
I know you would like dismiss those who were against it because it wasn’t far enough to the left, but you can’t. And now they are for the most part, on board. They know we can, and will, move it further to the left over the years. Just like the rest of the country.
Bigd: They did not vote the will of the people>>
DAR
Here again, is who the people trust:
“Americans remain more confident in the healthcare reform recommendations of President Obama (49%) than in the recommendations of the Democratic (37%) or Republican (32%) leaders in Congress.” Gallup Poll, March 5.” Gallop.
He’s got you by 17 points. And the 49% confidence in his recommendations correlates nicely with the 49% who considered passage of the bill, “a good thing.”
D.
Take the GDP and subtract the 100 trillion we have in unfunded mandates and the number is quite different.
The billionaires and millionaires have their money and it is not p to them to pay the bills regardless of how you lay it out. Not to mention tat all their money combined would not pay the bills.
Adam, the fallacy is that you thin police and other services benefit one group over another. The truth is that every member of society receives the same benefit from those. Every American receives the same benefit from the military.
But the wealthy pay more for the services. The wealthy pay for the police and other essential services that are used and just as available to the poor (and sometimes more so).
Our taxes pay for these services because they provide for our protection which is a Constitutional issue.
Roads are paid for with fuel taxes and everyone who drives pays them. What you pay is based on how much you drive and how efficient your vehicle is but everyone who drives, pays. Commercial enterprises pay a hell of a lot more.
I do not think it is right to get back more than you paid in. If people want to make more money then they need to improve their situations. I have no empathy for someone who did not get a good education or dropped out of school and is forced into a low paying job.
It is up to them to improve their situations. Giving them other people’s money will not improve them, it will make them dependent on government.
“The truth is that every member of society receives the same benefit from those.”
And how is that different for other tax funded programs? It would be like saying you don’t like to pay for the police because you never have to call them to your house directly. No, you just know that even when you don’t see them, even when you don’t need them that they are out there working for others and in turn yourself, and if you do need them they’ll be there for you too. It’s not that much different at all.
Nice debunk of most of your tax mythology talking points just posted here Bigd:
How Does USA Compare in Re-distribution of Wealth?.
Take a look at it, look at the charts, you’ll learn lots. You won’t remember it and you’ll stay with your indefensible (and false) tax talking points, but at least you will be without excuse.
D.
Adam, how is it different? If you pay in $1000 and get $5000 back and the other guy pays in $10,000 then obviously it is different. Look at it this way, how would it be if the police responded to those who paid more in taxes? Would it be fair? No, they respond to all emergencies (and many not so).
In the tax system the poor get back more than they pay. It is an unfair system.
Darrel, look at the countries on that list who tax more and see what trouble they are in.
The reality is that 47% of people pay no taxes and many of them get more back so they get what they pay in and more (of someone else’s money). The top wage earners pay most of the taxes in this country and do not benefit from the system.
I have already debunked the stupidity of Social Security. There is a cap. There is also a cap on ow much one can get in retirement no matter how much they make.
If they increase the cap or remove it then those people should be entitled to MUCH more when they retire and not be capped at the low end.
We take money from the wealthy and give it to the poor. It is redistributive and it will lead us to be like our “peer” nations like Greece.
Bigd: “The reality is that 47% of people pay no taxes>>
DAR
The only people in America who may pay no taxes are people who are in a persistent vegetative state, and I’m not sure about that.
What benefit do you find in constantly peddling ridiculous falsehoods, over and over, after they have been debunked?
As Nate put it:
“Again, this is an empirical issue, not merely a conveniently assertable talking point,…”
So many of your errors fall into that category.
The middle class and the poor, pay disproportionally higher taxes at every level (and there are lots of levels), except one, federal income tax. And as the Warren Buffet example showed, most of the rich manage to shield their wealth from taxes so that they pay a far lower percentage of tax on their wealth than the middle class.
You’ve complained about high corporate taxes in the US, while ignoring that 2/3 of US corporations pay no income taxes at all.
“Two out of every three United States corporations paid no federal income taxes from 1998 through 2005, according to a report released Tuesday by the Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress.” NYT’s.
D.
——————
“Buffett cited himself, the third-richest person in the world, as an example. Last year, Buffett said, he was taxed at 17.7 percent on his taxable income of more than $46 million. His receptionist was taxed at about 30 percent.” Link.
“Look at it this way, how would it be if the police responded to those who paid more in taxes?”
How is that even relevant? The police, like most welfare programs, are not needed equally by all parties but we all contribute and we all have access to them if we need it. It’s not like you cannot get social programs. You just don’t want or need them. Unfortunately others do.
I’ve never needed to call the police or report a crime but does that mean I should be mad that I still pay any taxes that may support a police force when others use it more than I do? No. That would be nonsense.
How does everyone contribute when a large portion pay no taxes? Those same folks paying no federal income taxes are paying little of no state taxes. They are using services that they do not contribute to.
How is that right?
Bigd: “Those same folks paying no federal income taxes are paying little of no state taxes.”>>
DAR
No, as shown to you at least twice before, those folks actually pay a higher percent of their income in state taxes.
***
And let’s not forget how the poor get hammered unfairly at the state level. For instance, Arkansas:
“When all Arkansas taxes are totaled up, the study found that:
* Arkansas families earning less than $15,000—the poorest fifth of Arkansas non-elderly taxpayers—pay 12 percent of their income in Arkansas state and local taxes.
* Middle-income Arkansas taxpayers—those earning between $26,000 and $42,000—pay 11.7 percent of their income in Arkansas state and local taxes.
* But the richest Arkansas taxpayers—with average incomes of $911,500—pay only 6.8 percent of their income in Arkansas state and local taxes.”
LINK
See the state by state break down here.
Poor people and the middle class pay a *greater* percent of their income in state and local taxes than the wealthy. It’s the same everywhere. Check your state and see.
D.
No Darrel, the little bump is nothing and not worth mentioning. The will of the people is the will before the vote.
The latest polls show about a 54-37 split. People do not like it and they do not support it.
The spin about well they like this part or that part is deceptive. They d not like the bill in total but like some parts that they would like in a smaller, more focused bill.
People know this bill will cost much more than claimed (watch for a post on this).
People are so happy that Obama’s approval is 43%. He is getting to Bush numbers, better watch out.
The people in Massachusetts showed what they thought by electing Brown who ran solely on being the 41st vote against the bill. The dems ignored this and said it was about something else.
In November Obama will have to turn the spin machines on full blast and it will be because of the health care takeover.
Whatever happened to Flake???
I was wondering when someone in a persistent vegetative state (liberal) would respond- glad you miss me, Buns- I am sorry that I cannot respond to kneejerk libbies like you as much as I used to- just think of me as a rare wine that you can’t just find anywhere, but always imparts a little special something whenever you find me.
How does that work for you, Buns?
It works out just fine, Flake. Dog makes enough mistakes on his own. It’s too time consuming to keep up with both of you. Who’s this Frannie character, some friend of yours?
PEACE
Bunny, you can stay away. The only mistake I have made here is not banning you for your constant disregard for the rules. I have no tolerance for you now so straighten up or you will be gone.
Because Darrel, nothing has been debunked. It was shown how misleading Buffet was and the poor do not pay a higher tax rate. You can spout that about Medicare and SS but, as I have shown, the rich receive benefits on what they pay in and not what they make. If they were to receive benefits equal to paying more then tax them more but it is not right to tax them on all their money and only pay them a capped rate for retirement, a rate capped at what many who paid much less will receive.
Bigd: “the poor do not pay a higher tax rate.”>>
DAR
The poor and middle class, at the state level, pay a MUCH larger percentage of their income in taxes than the wealthy do.
That’s just an objective fact.
Bigd: “an spout that about Medicare and SS but”>>
DAR
I don’t even need to mention that for the above point. But that is another reason why your bit about poorer working people not paying taxes is false. FICA funds our government and it has run huge surpluses over the years and is treated as general revenue. This is a huge tax levied on the working class.
Buffet, (like his other fat cat billionaires), as a percentage, pays almost half the rate his middle class secretary does on her income. Can’t spin your way out of that but I know you like to try.
Bigd (earlier): “billionaires and millionaires… all their money combined would not pay the bills.”>>
DAR
If we absconded 90% of the wealth of the just the billionaires, it would pay all the debt. The US has huge reservoirs of untapped taxable income. Immense. When Canada’s debt was getting too high in the early 90’s they instituted a VAT tax (about 7%). It raised a lot of money and got things back in order. But VAT taxes are rather regressive. The rich should be hit much more like in the old days.
The US could do this and have a much smaller VAT tax and solve it’s fiscal problems (along with sensible cuts).
Anyone else notice the republican fear mongering when Obama wanted to cut medicare just a bit? Amazing hypocrisy and political opportunism. This is why it is so hard to get sensible things accomplished in this country.
D.
First of all, looking at a few states and skewing results about taxes does not make it so. In a number of states there is no state income tax whatsoever, in many others states taxes are based on what is reported to the federal government and the deductions come from the federal form. People in the states who pay no federal tax pay little, if any, in state taxes.
The rich pay most of the taxes and if we took all their money it might and I stress might, pay the debt (though I doubt that) but we would have the deficit.
The question is, what gives you the right to confiscate that money? Why should they pay 90% of their income to pay for society?
If you want to make things better then remove the income tax all together. Have a national sales tax (not a VAT) and make that National Sales Tax capped at a certain percent that cannot be raised without a certain number of votes in Congress (a super majority). The we would be taxing consumption and not production. Everyone would have skin in the game based on their purchases. The poor who buy a big screen TV or cell phone would pay into the taxes just like a rich guy who bought a big TV or cell phone.
Since the rich buy more they will pay more but we will all pay the same rate and our consumption will be taxed not our production.
You assume that the US will have sensible cuts. We do not need a VAT. It is wrong and will not work. Government will add the VAT, increase spending, increase the VAT and so on. In addition it will keep the income taxes the same.
People who pay taxes pay enough and they pay their fair share. If you continue to tax them they will take their money someplace else. They will find ways to avoid the taxes and the country will be worse off.
And what happened to equal treatment under the law?
It is hard to get sensible things done in this country because people from both parties oppose the same ideas they support when their party is in power. It goes BOTH ways Darrel.
You all opposed things Bush did and applaud Obama for doing the same thing. It works both ways. The reason we cannot get things done is because we have entrenched politicians and we have morons voting.
There will eventually be bad civil resistance if the tax structure is screwed with and the number of people who pay little or no income taxes continues to rise. Say what you want but the poor do not pay more, end of story.
Of course you are wrong about a few things Darrel. While FICA might be used to fund the government that is not what it is supposed to do. If they put the money aside we would not have problems now. It was never intended to fund the government and that is the wrong use of the money. This mismanagement is why they need more and more. And it is mismanagement.
You say the rich pay less as a percentage of income. Yep and they receive less in SS retirement as a percent of income. This is because their amount is based on the capped salary regardless of what they made. If a millionaire were forced to pay SS on all his income then we need to change the law so that he gets a hell of a lot more from SS when he retires.
It is not up to them to pay for everyone else. End of story.
Buffet pays himself $1 a year and lives of Capital Gains which are taxed at a lower rate. His income tax rate might be lower but his overall tax burden is higher when one considers all the business taxes.
If Buffet is so concerned about this then why does he not just take a regular salary? Why does he not just make a donation to the Treasury.
You see, the rich liberals always talk about raising taxes and discuss how unfair it is that they do not pay more (Bill Clinton did this). They can ALL make a donation to the Treasury to pay off the national debt. If they are so concerned that they do not pay enough all they have to do is write a big check and send it.
But they don’t do that because they do not want to pay taxes despite what they say. They want everyone else to pay them.
No matter what the poor pay in taxes they get a hell of a lot more in benefits from government programs.
There will be a tipping point where people stop paying.